I had a simple question for our bio-security officials, are they winning in their war against fire ants in south Queensland? The answer I get from people on the ground is definitely not.

There’s a lot of questions about how the State Government is spending the hundreds of millions and whether it’s just a money spinner while fire ants continue their march across Queensland.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: My questions are on fire ants, as a result of concerns raised by several constituents over several years in south-eastern Queensland around the towns of Gatton and Boonah.  

Mr Metcalfe: Sorry, I didn’t hear the first part of the question. CHAIR: Yes, you are a bit hard to hear.  

Senator ROBERTS: My questions are from constituents in the towns of Gatton and Boonah in South East Queensland and they are on fire ants—eradication or suppression or containment, I’m not sure which.  

Mr Metcalfe: That is a very long-standing and expensive program.  

Senator ROBERTS: Yes. How much has it cost the Commonwealth government of Australia to fund the fight against the spread and ultimately eradicate these pests—fire ants—so far?  

Dr Locke: My colleague might correct me if I got this wrong, but the federal government, as I understand it, has spent $294.3 million to date as its contribution to the program.  

Mr Simpson: Yes, since 2001.  

Senator ROBERTS: The figures I have been told were of $412 million allocated over 10 years, running out in the next 12 months, but the actual spending is $700 million. I have heard that figure from people in the Queensland government.  

Mr Simpson: The National Red Imported Fire Ant Eradication Program in South East Queensland is a $411.4 million nationally cost-shared program. That is the current program in place at the moment.  

Senator ROBERTS: Did you say $411 million?  

Mr Simpson: It is $411.4 million.  

Dr Locke: It runs to 2027, so it is not quite 12 months. This may have been a previous line of questioning but it has been subject to a review, and Queensland as the lead agency is to come to national governments through the ag ministerial council to provide an update and to propose where to take the program going forward. 

Senator ROBERTS: So it is $412 million. My figures are correct. The next question is: Are we winning in getting rid of the fire ants?  

Dr Locke: That is the essence of the paper the Queensland government will bring back to the ag ministers shortly. They are making good progress but it is an incredibly expensive program, as you know. I guess the question will be how much do we keep spending where and is that viable, and we haven’t got to that decision gate yet.  

Senator ROBERTS: Your KPIs don’t include: are we are winning or not? You can’t tell me if that is the case; you are relying on Queensland?  

Dr Locke: The review certainly said that we’re making good progress but it also suggested we should do some things differently. I guess that is what we have got to see rolled into a proposal for governments.  

Senator ROBERTS: Listening to the residents in the rural area near Gatton and Boonah, they are suggesting that you are not making progress.  

Dr Locke: To be fair, there is a large amount of money being spent on the eradication program. It is making a difference in some areas. I wouldn’t presume to say that their experience of that is wrong, but we need to see what the sum of the proposal looks like from the Queensland government.  

Senator ROBERTS: So are we waiting on the Queensland government, which is receiving hundreds of millions of dollars, to give us the answer?  

Dr Locke: They are the lead jurisdiction on a national response.  

Senator ROBERTS: But that’s true: we’re waiting on them?  

Dr Locke: Yes, but it’ll be a year soon.  

Senator ROBERTS: My point is that they’ve got an interest in perpetuating the spending of that money.  

Dr Locke: I’ve spent a lot of time talking to the Queensland government and the heads of Biosecurity. They don’t want to be doing this program if they don’t need to, but they want to get rid of red imported fire ants, as do all the other jurisdictions that are contributing to the funding.  

Senator ROBERTS: People want to get rid of them, but that doesn’t mean they’re effective in getting rid of them. That’s why I was asking you for KPIs.  

Dr Locke: There’s a lot of scrutiny on what the Queensland government is doing because other jurisdictions have to pay the cost. We pay for half of it and then other jurisdictions contribute as well, so there’s a lot of interest in what Queensland’s doing and there will be a lot of scrutiny on their proposal.  

Mr Metcalfe: Just to add to that, the actual independent chair of the steering committee is Dr Wendy Craik, who’s very well known in agricultural circles and is a very eminent and respected person. I certainly recall that she and her committee reported to agriculture senior officials over the last year or two. But you are absolutely right. It is an insidious and difficult pest, and, although it may well have been eradicated in some areas, it is still in others and we are very much awaiting advice from Queensland as to what would be needed to try and finally deal with the issue. But it’s a difficult one. It just shows you how difficult these issues can be.  

Dr Locke: In any eradication program there’s a first question about whether eradication is technically feasible and then there’s a question about the benefits and costs. Our understanding is that the revised Queensland proposal will say that it is still feasible, but we haven’t yet seen that and we haven’t yet had the chance to assess the benefits and costs.  

Senator ROBERTS: Isn’t it true, though, that areas that should be pest free are not—for example, the Richlands market garden is still infested. I understand there’s an area somewhat close to the Port of Brisbane, where they first arrived, is invested. I understand, in listening to some construction workers developing new housing estates just south of Ipswich, that they regularly just kick over these fire ant nests.  

Mr Metcalfe: I think that’s all true. We would probably need to take on notice information about very specific locations and we’d need to rely upon advice from the Queensland government about that, but I think we’re all saying that it’s a long-term and difficult issue but the Queensland government continues to be of the view that it’s a fight worth fighting and that it is able to be achieved. Apart from anything else—  

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for your honesty.  

Mr Metcalfe: Yes. Apart from anything else, it’s almost a fight that we must win. If the ants continue to spread and find their way up over the divide, then there’s a real issue as to whether they can migrate beyond the valleys around Brisbane and into the downs and elsewhere. I don’t think anyone’s under any misapprehension as to how serious this is and that’s why so much public funding has gone into it and a lot of smart people are working very hard to try and deal with it.  

Senator ROBERTS: I’m not doubting that they’re smart, and I’m not doubting there’s a lot of money going in. What I am doubting is the effectiveness, because I’ve listened to people on the ground—farmers and rural residents—and they’re not at all convinced and they’re worried about the dangers.  

Dr Locke: It’s a fair question, Senator, but I think that’s what their plan will address and I think you’ll find that, in some areas, you’ll get more positive responses, but there’s widespread concern, obviously, about the red imported fire ants. That’s why so much focus is being put on them.  

Senator ROBERTS: The secretary just said if they get west of the ranges then we’re in even more trouble, but that’s why I want to know how effective it is because if it’s not effective, they will go west of the ranges.  

Dr Locke: And that’s why all jurisdictions are contributing to the cost of the control.  

Mr Metcalfe: That’s not to underestimate the issues faced by people where they currently are. I’m not in any way denying the seriousness of the impact on amenity and production in the current areas of location, but there are very sound reasons for continuing to try and eradicate them, for broader regions as well.  

Senator ROBERTS: Is it true that there is a request before the Commonwealth for more than $800 million to be put towards the cost of the future program?  

Dr Locke: I’m not aware of any such request.  

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. What studies have been done as to the effect on human health of the insecticides used on fire ants?  

Dr Locke: I’m not sure if we have that detail here, do we?  

Mr Simpson: I’m sorry, we don’t have that with us.  

Mr Metcalfe: We’ll take that on notice.  

Senator ROBERTS: Why is bait laying done in wet weather when it is clearly stated that it is not to be done and rainy weather due to health risks?  

Mr Metcalfe: We’ll check on that with the Queensland government.  

Senator ROBERTS: Why are property owners not warned about aerial spraying, from helicopters, over their properties, even if it is not proven that fire ants are present there? It just seems indiscriminate.  

Mr Metcalfe : I will take that on notice as well. I’m not agreeing with any of it; I’m simply saying I’ll find out.  

Senator ROBERTS: Isn’t it true that the insecticides used to kill off all insect life make contact with and are a danger to the aquatic food chain?  

Mr Metcalfe : We’ll check on that as well.  

Senator ROBERTS: The Queensland government representatives in charge of the fire ant project could not answer these basic questions, not with any confidence. Residents are really concerned about their own health and their food security. What studies are being done in Queensland to monitor the health of the environment as a result of the indiscriminate spraying that puts toxic chemicals into the waterways?  

Mr Metcalfe : We’ll seek a response in relation to that as well.  

Senator ROBERTS: On what basis are federal moneys provided to the states to assist with these programs? I was told a few years ago in Gatton that the state government gets a different amount of money, whether it’s based upon an eradication program or a containment program. Is that true?  

Dr Locke: This is not a response that is funded under one of our standing deeds, but it follows very similar mechanisms. There are similar decision steps you go through about whether it can be eradicated and whether it is technically feasible. There are technical advisory bodies that help with that. There is a cost benefit piece and then there is a funding formula that depends on the nature of the pest. It is very like the disease responses we’ve got, that are managed through established deeds, but it is an independent framework.  

Senator ROBERTS: What kind of oversight do you have with regard to the effectiveness? I would like to know. The residents tell me, with some authority, that there’s an incredible waste of millions of taxpayers’ dollars when baiting is done, with no chance of success. People are not even warned that helicopters are dropping baits on their land. The next thing they know, a helicopter is dropping baits on their land during the rain. They can’t see how it is possibly working.  

Mr Metcalfe : Obviously, there are committees, there are experts and there are a whole bunch of overlays around this. I think it’s probably best if we respond to those very specific complaints. 

Senator ROBERTS: I’d like to know, specifically, how you track to make sure the Queensland government is doing a good job and not just spending money.  

Mr Metcalfe : Again, we will put that on notice.  

Senator ROBERTS: Is this, essentially, an ongoing money-spinner for the states?  

Mr Metcalfe : I think the easy way to say it is that the Queensland government would far prefer this to have been a successful program and no further money required, rather than simply seeing it as some sort of employment program—far from it.  

Senator ROBERTS: With due respect, the Queensland government is like some other governments; they don’t care, so long as they’re seen to be doing something. They want to look good rather than do good. That’s the concern of the residents, and people’s health is getting compromised.  

Mr Metcalfe : At a local level, the Queensland government has clear accountability in relation to this. But we will certainly provide answers, as far as we can.  

Senator ROBERTS: Is there any consideration given to nominating this as a project for the Australian National Audit Office?  

Mr Metcalfe : The Audit Office has looked at biosecurity arrangements generally. I’m not sure whether that’s been something—  

Senator ROBERTS: There’s a lot of money going into this.  

Dr Locke: This program was subject to a review not long ago; I’m not sure if I’ve got all the details of that but I am sure the ANAO will take an interest in the program at some point, given its size.  

Senator ROBERTS: Could you refer it to them?  

Dr Locke: I just think the way you’d characterise the Queensland government’s engagement on this issue doesn’t reflect our experience.  

Senator ROBERTS: I’ve seen two public meetings now where the Queensland government representatives have completely failed to allay fears.  

Dr Locke: Again, I am not disputing that experience and the views of your constituents; we’re happy to follow those up with the Queensland government. But I can’t say that I have seen anything that would characterise this as a money-spinner for the Queensland government. They are desperately trying to get rid of these fire ants, and they’re looking at innovative ways to do that. That’s certainly been the message that I got from Wendy Craik, when I spoke to her about the program, as well.  

Senator ROBERTS: I’m not here to convince you; I’m just here to ask questions and get your answers.  

Dr Locke: We’re happy to follow this up. I think it’s important to not lose community support for these programs.  

Senator ROBERTS: I’d like to know some specifics, please, in those answers. I’ve got more questions on foulbrood, but I’ll give someone else a go. 

Despite the government destroying tens of thousands of bee hives they have still failed in their mission to try and contain a varoa mite outbreak. No support has been offered to beekeepers to restock their hives. Without bees we won’t have agriculture and we won’t have food.

Before the election a change was made requiring the Australian Signals Directorate to audit the AEC voting systems ensuring they were secure and fit for purpose. I was hoping for a very quick answer at Senate Estimates to confirm this was done but didn’t receive one. The agency has about 6 weeks to get the answers back to me after taking the questions on notice.