Why is the ADF so secretive and unwilling to answer straightforward questions? The refusal to provide information is endemic in Defence, and there is no justification for it.
The answer to why three ADF vessels were involved in a photo shoot instead of participating in the search and potential rescue of victims of the downed Taipan helicopter could have easily been provided when I first asked. It could have been given when the question was put on notice. Instead, it was treated as though cloaked in secrecy, despite the fact that the answer was not classified information.
Since these questions, we have discovered that Defence deleted all images of the photo shoot from their website. If it was a simple answer, why the cover-up?
We also know that General Campbell’s assertion that these ships couldn’t operate in the area is nonsense, given that the HMAS Adelaide, according to Defence -“has been designed with the shallowest possible draft to allow her to… manoeuvre tactically in the shallow waters common in the littoral regions”.
The Minister and the ADF need to realise that we are all on the same side and stop trying to withhold information from the Australian public, whom they are employed to serve.
It might be embarrassing, but the cover-up is always worse than the initial crime.
Despite General Campbell’s initial claim that this type of boat couldn’t navigate the waters around the Whitsundays, it turned out to be untrue. General Campbell later clarified that HMAS Adelaide was, in fact, tasked to the search and rescue operation after the photo was taken. Why is it so hard to get a straight answer out of Defence?
Transcript
CHAIR: Senator Roberts, you have the call.
Senator ROBERTS: General Campbell, initially you said that you were unfamiliar with a question on notice; then one of your staff handed you the question on notice this morning. You then had lunch; presumably you chatted. I concluded that you were saying, ‘There’s not a single person in this building right now’—at the time—’in the waiting rooms that can answer whether there was a single vessel on the Exercise Talisman Sabre 2023 maritime photo shoot on 29 July, when the other vessels in the area were searching for the downed Taipan.’ I’ve already asked this four months ago and, while I have a response, I still do not have an answer. You did not answer it on notice; now you want to take it on notice again. I wonder where the Chief of Navy was. Could he explain? Could he have been brought to the table? This is a question about Navy vessels. I’m wondering whether there was no-one in this room or in the waiting rooms who could have answered that question. I’d like to table these documents, Chair.
CHAIR: I’ll have a look at them first.
Senator ROBERTS: The United States Navy has taken a photo and it’s dated 29 July. It’s an obvious photo shoot of the Talisman Sabre fleet and, in it, they say that the American ships are sailing in formation with the Royal Australian Navy Canberra class landing helicopter dock ship HMAS Canberra as part of the Talisman Sabre photo shoot. I’ll wait until you get the photo.
CHAIR: We’re just going to circulate it for information only because we need to be able to verify the photo. I know that there’s other information there, but we need to be able to verify it before we actually agree to table it. For the benefit of the witnesses, I’ll agree for it to be circulated as information only at this stage. As I said earlier, in my opening statement, it would be great if senators could send us an email with an electronic copy so that we can ensure that the secretariat can do what they do in a more efficient manner.
Senator ROBERTS: I’m sure that they’ll be watching.
CHAIR: I’m sure they have other things on, too. Who were you directing your question to?
Gen. Campbell: We have the photographs. What is your question?
Senator ROBERTS: There are several questions. First of all, this shows an Australian vessel at the photo shoot on the 29th and it wasn’t searching for the wreckage or the bodies from the downed Taipan. Why is that the case?
Gen. Campbell: I’ll let the Chief of Navy explain in more detail, but senators will see this photograph is out in open water, in an extended area. There are some ships in the Australian fleet and, indeed, in the US and international partner fleet, that are not suited to the work required in confined waters and with variable depths to deal with searching for a lost helicopter and crew. There’s a distinction here between what is suitable and hence applied to the search and what is not suitable and not considered for the search. I’ll turn to the Chief of Navy, as perhaps he would wish to speak further.
Vice Adm. Hammond: The CDF has laid it out precisely. That large array of ships in the photograph is in open water, some distance from land. It is routine to mark the beginning or the end of a large naval exercise with a group photograph. You’ll see there are aircraft carriers in there of the United States Navy—multiple vessels. There are Australian ships that are not in that photograph, because they were engaged in the search and rescue effort in confined waters inside the Whitsunday Islands. I submit that, had all of those ships been in that search area, we would have had a problem; there just isn’t enough sea room. The focus was on conducting a surface search initially for survivors, as I understand it, and for signs of wreckage. There were civilian craft involved and there were aircraft, rotary wing and fixed-wing, and there was no shortage of assets for that search—that very tragic incident.
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for your explanation. I understand your explanation. I’ll read the two responses that we got to questions on notice. I was specifically asking about a schedule of ships and boats that were available. The answer was: During Exercise Talisman Sabre 23, two maritime photographic activities were held on 22 and 29 July 2023. These activities included vessels participating in the exercise from Australia, the United States, Japan and the Republic of Korea. Nowhere did it give the explanation that you’ve just given—nowhere.
Vice Adm. Hammond: As the Chief of Navy, I’m not involved in the conduct of the Chief of Joint Operations. I suspect that request did not come to me.
Senator ROBERTS: I’m not saying that it did. I’m saying that it came from Defence, and Defence were very guarded in what they said. They said, ‘We were sincere, and we are sincere, in pursuing this issue.’ I got another answer, to question No. 23, which stated: There were six Royal Australian Navy warships in the area of operations on the night of the incident. Defence does not comment on the operational tasking of its assets. When we’ve seen what we’ve seen with the Taipans and been horrified by the loss of life on those Taipans, and then we see the nice photo shoot that we were on, we have a duty to ask those questions. We didn’t get the damn answers. We were led astray. It was suppressed. What you have said makes sense to me. You’re not going to have a US aircraft carrier ploughing around in the Whitsundays looking for a helicopter; I get that. You had at least one boat out in open waters; I get it. Why couldn’t we have been told that? What is Defence repeatedly trying to hide? We have seen issue after issue which Defence seems sensitive about.
Vice Adm. Hammond: I understand your frustration. I am not in a position to answer why there was not a more fulsome response. I stand by my testimony. The resources available that had the necessary capabilities were applied at speed—that is my understanding—the minute the accident was known, which was at night; the night of the accident. I don’t recall being asked for comment in response to your inquiries.
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. I accept your testimony, but we will be putting further questions on notice about this issue. Chair, I draw to the committee’s attention that there seem to be so many things that this chief of defence forces is either not open about or is hiding.
Senator McAllister: Senator—and Chair, perhaps—is it necessary to make general ad hominem attacks on the officials before the committee? Officials are here to answer questions about the budget. Officials—I think you have observed this morning—are willing to speak, as they have done now, when asked questions about particular matters. I am not sure it assists anyone to make broad and general accusations which are not substantiated against individuals in the room. I am not sure that helps the Senate in its work.
Senator ROBERTS: There are many issues that have not been talked about openly. Senator Shoebridge, Senator Lambie, other senators and I have raised serious issues, and we don’t seem to be getting the answers. Minister, you should have been at least doing a PII when you didn’t. I put the same question to you: there seems to be something that the defence department runs over the top of you—
Senator McAllister: Senator Roberts, I am happy to answer questions. If you have questions, please put them to us; to the officials and to me—
Senator ROBERTS: I am happy to do so. It is not just my frustration; it is my deep sadness at the loss of life which seems to have been unnecessarily lost in those Taipans.
CHAIR: I don’t think anyone would dispute that. We are all very sad about what has happened—
Senator ROBERTS: It borders on anger, though, when it could have been avoided.
Transcript
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for appearing today. I turn to the MRH-90 Taipan crash in the Whitsundays. We remember the aircrew of 6th Aviation Regiment: Capital Danniel Lyon, Lieutenant Maxwell Nugent, Warrant Officer Class 2 Joseph Laycock, and Corporal Alexander Naggs. Lest we forget. The MRH-90 helicopter crashed into waters around Lindeman Island late Friday night, 28 July 2023—around 10.30 pm, from reports. On 29 July, the search and rescue operation were still looking for missing aircrew and trying to locate the helicopter. At sometime on 29 July the Navy was off on a maritime photoshoot. General Campbell, were there any Australian vessels at the Talisman Sabre 24 maritime photographic exercise on 29 July, 2023; yes or no?
Gen. Campbell: I haven’t come prepared for that question. I will see whether any of my colleagues can answer, otherwise I will have to take it on notice.
Senator ROBERTS: I want to be clear, General Campbell. Late on Friday night the helicopter crashed. On Saturday, the next day, it seems that you could have had maritime assets, tasked on a photoshoot, off and away. What vessels were tasked to the Talisman Sabre maritime photographic activities on 29 July, if any were, and why the hell weren’t they tasked to the search and rescue operation? That is what I would like to know.
Gen. Campbell: We will take it on notice.
Senator ROBERTS: I asked you in October to give me a schedule of all vessels in the area of operations and exactly when each one was tasked to assist with the search-and-rescue operation. You said in question on notice No. 23: Defence does not comment on the operational tasking of its assets. You are not in the middle of a war. This tasking isn’t sensitive information; it is a peacetime search and rescue operation. Why won’t you answer that?
Gen. Campbell: I will have to return to that question on notice to understand the background, for me to be able to your question.
Senator ROBERTS: Were you embarrassed about the ship not being engaged in the search area, but off on a photoshoot?
Gen. Campbell: That has never crossed my mind. I can get the answers for you, but I know that our people engaged in that exercise were very conscious of how to be of assistance in supporting that downed aircraft and, at that stage, the missing aircrew.
Senator ROBERTS: In regard to the failure to provide the schedule of vessels, you don’t get to say, ‘I am not answering that question’ to the Senate. It is time you were reminded of that. You have refused to provide information to this committee, and you do not have any public interest immunity claim lodged. You are, therefore, in contempt of this committee.
CHAIR: Senator Roberts, you may want to withdraw that, unless there is some evidence you are trying to put forward. I suggest you rephrase that line of questioning.
Senator ROBERTS: Chair, a witness is required to produce to this committee any information or documents that are requested. There is no privacy, security, freedom of information or other legislation that overrides this committee’s constitutional powers to gather evidence. Witnesses are protected from any potential prosecution as a result of their evidence or of producing documents to this committee. If anyone seeks to pressure a witness against producing documents, that is also a contempt.
CHAIR: I understand that, but it is a matter for the Senate to determine that. You can put forward the case. I ask if you could withdraw the assertion that the general is in contempt, because that would be a matter for the Senate to work out, if we were to go down that path. Please withdraw that aspect.
Senator ROBERTS: Chair, the general has not provided a public interest immunity claim yet—
CHAIR: It is not a debatable point. I am asking you to withdraw so we can move on, and you can continue your line of questioning.
Senator ROBERTS: Okay; I withdraw.
CHAIR: Thank you.
Senator ROBERTS: Minister, you are well aware of the procedures around estimates. Witnesses cannot just refuse to answer questions or refuse to hand over information. They must ask you, the minister, to raise a public interest immunity claim. It is up to the Senate whether to accept that answer or insist otherwise. Why are you letting Defence run rampant and refuse to hand over information, without even the courtesy of a public interest immunity claim?
Senator McAllister: I do not accept the assertion, or that characterisation of the behaviour of Defence. All senators are aware of the standing orders. That is true for the senators on this side of the table, and the senators sitting before us. The CDF has indicated that he is willing to review the answer that has been provided. He has taken your question on notice. Your question went to the grounds on which the information was not provided. He has indicated that he will examine that. You have asked him to do so, and he has taken it on notice. He will come back to you when he has the information.
Senator ROBERTS: I asked you to give me on notice a list of every report or briefing provided to Defence or created internally raising issues with the Taipan helicopter. Your answer was that this would take too many resources to collate together. That sums up the Taipan, doesn’t it?
Senator McAllister: Again, that question essentially invites speculation on your rhetorical position. If there is a specific question of fact or policy that you wish to address to officials, you should do so. Asking them to speculate about a rhetorical characterisation of a project is not reasonable.
Senator ROBERTS: Minister, are you aware that Defence had said it would take too many resources to collate a list of every report or briefing provided to Defence or created internally raising issues with the Taipan helicopter?
Senator McAllister: Is there a particular question you are referring to?
Senator ROBERTS: Are you aware?
Senator McAllister: This committee asks many questions on notice, and many answers are provided. Is there a number, or a particular question on notice, for which an answer has been provided in these terms that you can point me to?
Senator ROBERTS: Minister, I just explained it.
Senator McAllister: Do you have a number? It is difficult for me to respond if you cannot even tell me which question we are talking about. I am happy to look at it.
Senator ROBERTS: I’ll get back to you on that one.
Gen. Campbell: I refer to the question on notice Senator Roberts was referring to, from 25 October, 2023 on page 52 of the Hansard proof. The answer was: ‘There were six Royal Australian Navy warships in the area of operation on the night of the incident. Defence doesn’t comment on the operational tasking of its assets.’ That is correct—we don’t. But I want to reinforce the assurance that every asset that could be of assistance from Australia or from any of our partner nations in that exercise was tasked to be of assistance.
Senator ROBERTS: General, were any Australian Navy vessels tasked at the same time on a photoshoot?
Gen. Campbell: That is what I will have to come back to you on. You are talking about the next day, the 29th perhaps.
Senator ROBERTS: Correct, while the other vessels were engaged in search and rescue.
Gen. Campbell: I will come back to you on that, Senator.
CHAIR: We can revisit that, Senator Roberts.
