Steroid Testing of ADF Athletes

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Some constituents raised some concerns about the steroid testing of Australian Defence Force athletes.

At Senate Estimates I asked Sports Integrity Australia whether they have received any notifications from the ADF in relation to steroid testing.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: My questions go to sports integrity, Mr Sharpe. Could you briefly explain the rules around testing for athletes, as in who is eligible and who is required? 

Mr Sharpe : They’re quite broad. Our focus is on international- and national-level athletes from a testing perspective. We can test lower, but our focus and our policy is that where there’s an absence of education at a lower level, in the first instance, we wouldn’t be testing unless there was specific intelligence that would suggest we need to take a facilitator or someone out of sport. 

Senator ROBERTS: Your focus is on international level? 

Mr Sharpe : And on a national level. 

Senator ROBERTS: Can you explain why athletes that are tested are prohibited from private testing? 

Mr Sharpe : They’re not prohibited from private testing. 

Senator ROBERTS: Can they go and test themselves? 

Mr Sharpe : Absolutely. Sports do have illicit policies, where they all conduct testing around that, which is separate to our agencies. But athletes, if they felt they needed to, would not be prevented from doing that. 

Senator ROBERTS: What is the efficacy of hair follicle testing for steroids? 

Mr Sharpe : We don’t do hair follicle testing. 

Senator ROBERTS: Because it’s not efficacious? 

Mr Sharpe : We just don’t do it because we follow the world Anti-Doping Code and it’s not a part of the code. 

Senator ROBERTS: Are you aware of the Defence Force exemption from their testing regimes for competitive athletes in the Australian Defence Force? 

Mr Sharpe : No, I’m not aware. 

Senator ROBERTS: Should Defence be making you aware of any suspicions of doping? 

Mr Sharpe : I think that’s a matter for Defence. We’d certainly be willing to work with Defence if it related to a sporting event that was under an anti-doping policy. 

Senator ROBERTS: I take it they have not made you aware of any of that. 

Mr Sharpe : No, they have not. 

Senator ROBERTS: How would you action it if they did make you aware? 

Mr Sharpe : It would depend on whether the sport is a registered sport in this country and under an anti-doping policy—whether they participate in those sports or not. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. That’s the end of my questions. 

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Smart Meters and Remote Control Air Cons

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At Senate Estimates I asked the Australian Energy Regulator if they were concerned that there seems to be increasing control over people’s electricity and access to electricity. It seems to be a case of “see no evil” at the Energy Regulator after hundreds of thousands of Queenslanders had their air-cons remotely throttled by the Government.

As the grid gets more unstable because of net-zero policies the government needs more control over electricity use to avoid damage to infrastructure.

One Nation will oppose this WEF inspired control dystopia at every turn.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for appearing again today. I have a question about the emergency backstop mechanism from the Queensland government’s Department of Energy and Climate. It’s implemented in Queensland and it allows the government to turn off people’s solar panels at will. A lot of people in Queensland were shocked when the government reached into their homes and controlled their air conditioning units 170,000 times in the last two months. Now we’re finding out the government can turn off people’s solar panels as well. I don’t understand why the panels on someone’s house would have to be remotely cut off, even for self-consumption. As the regulator, do you have any data on how many of these generation signalling devices have been installed in Queensland under this emergency backstop mechanism and how many are installed nationally? 

Ms Savage : Is your question about smart inverters? 

Senator ROBERTS: It’s about smart meters that are cutting off air conditioning units and cutting off solar panels. 

Ms Savage : There is a backstop mechanism that’s been put in place through the Energy and Climate Change Ministerial Council, which I don’t know if the department wishes to comment on. Essentially, it’s to avoid situations of what they call minimum demand, where you might have— 

Senator ROBERTS: Minimal demand? 

Ms Savage : Minimum demand problems. It’s where in system operation you might have so much solar in the system— 

Senator ROBERTS: Like the middle of the day. 

Ms Savage : That’s right. South Australia is where it’s been most acute. You might have so much that you can’t keep a stable minimum generation load in place. Solar is turned off during those emergency situations to ensure that you can keep that minimum stable generation load. I’m not aware of the figures that you’ve just quoted around the number of times it’s been done in Queensland, so I’ll look to my colleagues, Ms Jolly or Mr Duggan, to see if they can assist. 

Mr Duggan : I was going to ask if you could give us a sense of where those figures came from, Senator, because I hadn’t heard them before. 

Senator ROBERTS: I can get back to you on that. It was widely reported in the press last week. 

Ms Savage : It’s not consistent with my understanding, so I think we’d need to see the figures. 

Senator ROBERTS: Okay. We’ll get them to you. Under the National Electricity Rules, what remedy or compensation is available to a homeowner if their solar panels are turned off remotely and they suffer some kind of damage because of that? 

Ms Savage : Again, it’s not an area of the AER’s responsibility. I’m not sure whether there are compensation payments in place—I don’t think there are. 

Mr Duggan : I think having access to the information that you’ve got would help us out enormously, but, to me, the direction of the question is more one that goes to AEMO’s management of the grid. I suspect they would be operating that part of the system. If we can get the information from you, we’ll endeavour to work with those— 

Senator ROBERTS: Doesn’t the Australian Energy Regulator oversee the whole lot? 

Ms Savage : Yes, but not necessarily the way in which the system is operated, and that’s a system operation question. We make sure people comply with the rules. One of the things the Australian Energy Regulator is doing is working with the network companies to do what’s called flexible export limits. This is to ensure that you have a greater opportunity to optimise the solar system across the whole grid so that we’re not seeing solar panels being turned off unnecessarily. Did you want to add anything, Mr Cox? 

Mr Cox : No. I think that’s basically right. At the moment, solar panels, as you mentioned, are turned off to preserve the stability of the grid. It’s a fairly rigid arrangement. Perhaps a more flexible arrangement would allow people to export more frequently at times that are convenient to them, and that’s something we’re exploring with the various network businesses. 

Senator ROBERTS: You used the word ‘acute’ and talk about ensuring a stable minimum generation load. These things—solar and wind—have introduced a hell of a lot of management issues, which adds costs and risk to the system. 

Ms Savage : I think they add cost and risk at times through the day, but they’re also at times free. From that perspective, we see a lot of negative prices—in South Australia and Queensland, in particular—through the middle of the day, which lowers overall average prices of the system, but at other times of the day there are costs to manage the system. Ms Jolly has just reminded me that we do have the export services network performance report, which looks at how the networks are and how much solar energy is being exported into the grid. That report might be useful to you too. 

Senator ROBERTS: Okay. Could you send us that, please. 

Ms Savage : Yes. 

Senator ROBERTS: You may not be able to answer this question, but you’re the overseer. How many air conditioners have been installed with remote demand management systems under the PeakSmart program in Queensland? 

Ms Savage : I wouldn’t have access to that data. 

Senator ROBERTS: Would you be able to get it on notice? 

Ms Savage : I don’t think we would have that as an agency; that sounds like a Queensland government program. 

Senator ROBERTS: But you’re overseeing the national. 

Ms Savage : We oversee the bits that are within the national electricity law and rules. State based programs usually are done through state based legislation. 

Senator ROBERTS: So they can operate independently? 

Ms Savage : If the states have their own legislation, there will be elements that will operate through that. 

Senator ROBERTS: Are you concerned that there seems to be increasing control over people’s use of electricity and access to electricity? 

Ms Savage : In Queensland there has been direct load control of air conditioners and pool pumps for a very long time, for more than 20 years. From that perspective, it is not a new thing in Queensland; it has always been a part of the system operation in Queensland. 

Senator ROBERTS: What about other states? Is it increasing? 

Ms Savage : We would have to look at the numbers. I don’t have the numbers in front of me. 

Senator ROBERTS: Could you get them on notice, please. 

Ms Savage : Ms Jolly, would we have those numbers? 

Ms Jolly : I’m not sure. They may come from the distributors who run those programs autonomously. 

Senator ROBERTS: Do you how many smart meters have been installed in Queensland? 

Ms Savage : I probably know how many smart meters there are in Queensland. We are at about 47 per cent in Queensland. Is that right? We’d have to take that on notice. 

Senator ROBERTS: If you could, please. Forty-seven per cent of households have smart metres? 

Ms Savage : We looked at this last week, so I’m trying to remember what the answer to that is. But I think that we’re heading into that territory in most of the jurisdictions now—up towards the high 40 per cents. 

Senator ROBERTS: Is there anything in the National Electricity Rules that enshrines the right of a customer to refuse a smart meter? At the moment many of the programs have opt-out clauses, but my question is whether there is anything in the Electricity Rules that will stop an electricity company if they decide to try to force someone to take a smart meter, to make it mandatory. 

Ms Savage : I think I’ll need take that on notice as well. 

Senator ROBERTS: It seems like there is increasing power over people’s use of electricity. I’ll just ask a few questions; you may not be able to answer these. It is about the emergency backstop mechanism website. The government says that the emergency backstop mechanism ‘is an important step in supporting Queensland’s transition to a more coordinated electricity system’. Is the electricity system becoming more coordinated, controlled? 

Senator McAllister: Senator Roberts, we’ve canvassed this a few times over the course of the day. It’s very difficult for officials to answer questions about documents when we don’t know the provenance of the documents or the dates they were published or we don’t have the document in front of us. Are you able to table that or perhaps provide us with a web link? 

Senator ROBERTS: Sure. It was a website, last updated 12 December 2023, from the Department of Energy and Climate in the Queensland government. 

Senator McAllister: I see. So it’s a Queensland government— 

Senator ROBERTS: Yes. 

Senator McAllister: I’m not sure that the Commonwealth government can answer questions about Queensland government programs. The AER may have information for you, but there are limits on what we can discuss in this forum. 

Senator ROBERTS: I understand that, Minister. I’m just looking at what the Queensland government is saying about the ‘more coordinated electricity system’ and I thought that that might come under the Australian Energy Regulator. 

Ms Savage : I would probably say that an electricity system must be coordinated—it has always been coordinated—because you have to have instantaneous meeting of supply and demand. That’s why you have a system operator to make sure that you’ve got generation resources available when people demand it. That level of coordination is fundamental to ensuring that we can keep a stable voltage waveform in the system. The physics of that demands it. To answer your question, it has always been a coordinated system and it will need to be remain a coordinated system. 

Senator ROBERTS: It says it’s becoming ‘more coordinated’. 

CHAIR: On this notion of the national energy grid and the role of the states, I think what we’re probably tripping over here is the situation where there is a national plan and the states each have a set of responsibilities. How they then roll out those responsibilities is sometimes done in the state and not necessarily part of the purview of— 

Senator ROBERTS: I understand that. I’m trying to find out whether or not you have any role in that or any information about that. 

Ms Savage : I’m happy to try and answer your questions. They’re just not necessarily directly in my patch, but I’ll help you however I can. 

Senator ROBERTS: That’s about all I had. You’ve already answered the last one I had. 

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How Do You Fit Big Australia Into Small Housing and Infrastructure?

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I asked the Treasury Department how they got immigration forecasts for the year so horribly wrong when they were already a third of the way through the year? In October 2022, the Government estimated total net overseas migration for the year July 2022 to June 2023 to be 235,000. The actual arrivals for 2022-23 ended up at 518,000. It’s hard to understand how Treasury was this wrong about those 12 months when they were already 4 months through them.

This is just more proof the government’s immigration program is totally out of control. Minister Gallagher is wrong when she claims this flood immigration is a benefit to Australia. Right now immigration is choking our country, making the housing problem, the cost of living crisis, energy shortages, the crisis in healthcare and other essential services even worse.

Only One Nation will make sure Australians get a roof over their heads first.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you to the officials for being here today. The 2022-23 budget, delivered in October 2022, predicted that net overseas migration would be 235,000 people for the financial year 2022-23. Can I ask whether the Treasury’s definition of net overseas migration differs from the Australian Bureau of Statistics’ definition of overseas migration? 

Ms Reinhardt: Sorry; can you just— 

Senator ROBERTS: Do you have the same definition of net— 

Ms Reinhardt: Yes, we do. 

Senator ROBERTS: I want to go to your department’s immigration forecasts. I notice that in the October 2022 budget papers, four months into that financial year, you were predicting net overseas migration at 235,000 people for the year. Instead, the Australian Bureau of Statistics says Australia had 737,000 migrant arrivals, for a net overseas migration of 518,000—well over double what you said. 

Ms Reinhardt: In the budget, we had a figure for net overseas migration of 400,000. The MYEFO had 510,000, and I recognise that that is a significant miss. I would, however, flag a couple of things around that. The first is that the UK in the period between March and November last year had to double their NOM forecast, and New Zealand had a similar adjustment. There has been a significant uptick in student arrivals post-COVID in most countries—Canada, Australia, UK and New Zealand. There was, I guess, a catch-up that was much faster than any of those countries predicted. We are still below where we would otherwise have been had COVID not occurred. But I think you’re right in saying those forecasts could have been better, if that’s the point you’re making. I would say we are in company. I don’t say it’s good company, but we are in company, and that is something we do need to look at. The other point I’d make is that there have been some really significant changes that have been introduced in the last six months. They’re around closing off the pandemic event visa; introducing really significant integrity changes around student visas; looking at ways of targeting better temporary skilled migration; and indexing theTSMIT, the temporary skilled migration income threshold. We would expect those changes to have quite a substantial impact on arrivals and the NOM numbers. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. I’ll stay with you, Ms Reinhardt. I think you talked about catching up on the pre-COVID-era statistics. My understanding is that we had 1.9 million people on visas before the COVID, and by October 2023 we had 2.3 million—we’d already caught up, well and truly, at the start of that year. I can’t tell you which group of visas— 

Ms Reinhardt: We haven’t fully caught up, but, in terms of visa numbers, I’ll see if my colleague— 

Senator ROBERTS: No, we’ve more than caught up in categories of working visas. 

Ms Horvat: No. 

Ms Reinhardt: No, not in terms of the stock of— 

Senator ROBERTS: In working visas? 

Ms Horvat: We look at net overseas migration in total— 

Senator ROBERTS: I’ve shifted to working visas. 

Ms Horvat: but Ms Reinhardt’s statement is correct, as we have not caught up to pre-COVID for total net overseas migration. 

Senator Gallagher: But Treasury don’t look at what particular visa type you’re on; that would be a matter for Home Affairs. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for pointing that out. Nonetheless, this huge increase in people has a huge impact on the people who are already here. What happens to the prices of houses, rentals, accommodation generally, energy, groceries—cost of living? There’s a huge impact on all of those things when we have so many people flooding into the country. 

Ms Reinhardt: I’m really not best placed to answer the broader inflation questions, but I would say that net overseas migration has really significant positive impacts for Australia. That’s been shown in the analysis year after year. We have maintained a very low unemployment rate in Australia whilst having pretty long-term migration to Australia for several hundred years, and that’s been a really important factor to our economic success. It has also, in recent times, not resulted in any substantial uptick in unemployment, and at the same time we’ve seen really high participation rates for Australians. So I would push back on the idea that that is an absolute negative for Australians, as it’s delivered substantial economic benefit to Australians. 

Senator ROBERTS: It would be, potentially, if it were done in a carefully calculated way and with infrastructure spending to match, but we haven’t build a dam in how many decades for water supply? 

Senator Gallagher: We’re moving into a different area. 

Senator ROBERTS: That’s right. I’m directing my question to you, Minister. This has a huge impact on people’s livelihoods. 

Senator Gallagher: The evidence that you’ve been given is that migration to this country has supported economic growth across the country for many years. We agree that we needed to tighten up some of the arrangements that we’re seeing, particularly around international students and some of the loopholes that were being used—some of the behavioural responses post COVID—and that work is being done. Because of those reforms, there will be 180,000 fewer people over the forward estimates than there would’ve been if we had left the situation unattended to, but there’s a huge amount of work. 

Senator ROBERTS: That’s still a large number. 

Senator Gallagher: It comes down to, I think, 250,000 in the final year of the forward estimates. The work that the Minister for Home Affairs is doing in the migration space has been complex. She inherited a lot of issues in that department—that’s probably putting it politely—and we’re working through them bit by bit. But those reforms are in place. The issues that you raise around infrastructure are real. I don’t think you can blame all of those, again, on overseas migration to this country. Infrastructure requires long-term planning. It involves investments from states and territories. Some of the pressures we’re seeing in housing supply haven’t happened overnight or in the last two years. It’s been a build-up over a much longer period of time, when we weren’t experiencing those high levels of overseas migration that we’ve seen in the last two years. It’s more complex than that. But, yes, we have to work on housing supply; we have to ensure that we’re building infrastructure that’s right for people in cities, towns and regions across Australia; we’ve got to fix the migration system; and we’ve got to make sure that it works for everybody.  

Senator ROBERTS: That’s my point, Minister: just adding more people without doing all the other creates a problem. Sure, it increases economic growth, which looks good in a book or on a whiteboard— 

Senator Gallagher: It supports jobs and incomes in this country, so it is interlinked. What I’m saying is, we will always want to have a migration program. We want to attract people to this country. We want them to live here and come from any country around the world. There are good social and economic reasons to have an approach like that, but, at the same time, you have to be looking after your back garden as well. You have to be making sure the infrastructure is there and that you’re building the housing, and we’re doing all of those things. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, Chair. 

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“That’s not my job” Lemmings Driving us Off the Net Zero Cliff

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No one in government will take responsibility for the net-zero plan going wrong. Mr Parker who heads the Clean Energy Regulator is paid over $630,000 a year, yet he admits that even if catastrophic errors in claims about Net Zero are brought to his attention, he would do nothing about it. No-one on the panel were prepared to answer questions about your right to receive reasonable power bills or to continue to enjoy a standard of living better than a third world country.

Minister McAllister points out that the department is only responsible for the “broad settings” and that other institutions are there to simply follow their tasks under legislation.

Only One Nation is prepared to face up to the UN-WEF Net Zero agenda and pull the plug on the nation killing scam invented by predatory globalists.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, Chair. First of all, thank you for being here. Can I ask whether you take any responsibility for assessing the cost of trying to run the grid on wind and solar? 

Mr Parker : No, Senator, we don’t do that kind of work. Our job, as defined by statute, is to administer various programs in the climate space, but not that one. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. Do you do any analysis, measuring or modelling on how much wind and solar actually cost once you include the necessary firming or integration costs, the storage and additional transmission? 

Mr Parker : No, Senator. 

Senator ROBERTS: Your job is just to pursue the legislative targets? That’s your statutory job? 

Mr Parker : That’s broadly right. It is in an unofficial space somewhat broader than that, because we have insight, if you like, into industry trends and what’s going on through our liaison with industry, and we are able to feed those views into the policy process. 

Senator ROBERTS: When you say, ‘trends’ what do you mean? They aren’t cost trends. 

Mr Parker : No. We have some information on costs but, as I said, we don’t model those. The sorts of information which we look at are developments in the markets for the relevant carbon instruments, the quantity of investment taking place and so forth. We have an insight into that from our on-the-ground work. 

Senator ROBERTS: You don’t raise the alarm bells over whether chasing net zero for the energy grid is practically feasible or how much it’s going to cost to get to 2035 with solar and wind powering everything? 

Mr Parker : No, that’s a policy question; we don’t get into that. 

Senator ROBERTS: You don’t test AEMO’s Integrated System Plan at all—there are so many acronyms aren’t there?—to see if it has any flaws? You don’t analyse GenCost from CSIRO to see if there are any faulty assumptions? 

Mr Parker : We’re familiar with all of those reports, but it’s not our role to critique them, if you like. 

Senator ROBERTS: As the national regulator for this type of energy, even if it were brought to your attention that there are fundamental flaws in the foundational documents for this whole plan, like the Integrated System Plan or GenCost, you wouldn’t or couldn’t do anything about it. It’s not your responsibility? 

Mr Parker : It’s not our role within our statutory remit to do anything about it. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr Parker. I only ask, because almost every climate related agency I’ve ask, whether it’s supposedly justifying the mad switch to solar and wind or whether it’s actually implementing the policy says, ‘It’s not our job to consider the big picture.’ I’m not arguing that you’re shirking it—I’m not at all. I’m just confirming that you don’t do it. We could be driving off a cliff here and everyone is saying, ‘It’s not my job to think about the cliff, I just drive the car,’ because you’ve been appointed as the driver. Does that terrify you? 

Senator McAllister: Senator Roberts, you’re now— 

Senator ROBERTS: Does it terrify you, Minister? 

Senator McAllister: You’re now asking the official about his feelings and you’re asking me about my feelings. I can explain to you the policy position of the government, the policy arrangements in the government and the responsibilities. The Department of Climate Change, Energy, the Environment and Water is responsible for the broad settings in relation to the energy market. They’ve been here this morning, answering questions from senators about the approach they take to policy development for the settings for the energy system. There are other institutions, as you’ve observed, that have either advisory or regulatory roles. The CER is one of them and they’re here and able to answer your questions about the task that they’ve been given under legislation. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Mr Parker and your team. Thank you, Chair. 

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CASA Has Loose Ends It “Cannot Recall”

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CASA’s credibility is in free fall.

The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) is meant to be the authority regulating aviation safety and yet senior executives have free and exclusive access to Chairman’s Lounge and Virgin Beyond Lounge that aren’t available to the public. These exclusive memberships were not listed as gifts or benefits on the register until AFTER I drew attention to them. CASA quietly updated their website with these gift memberships without issuing a clarification.

How is this not a conflict of interest? The behaviour of these senior CASA members is bordering on contemptuous and as the Chair noted during this Estimates session, it’s sloppy.

What else is hidden from the public by Miss Spence and other CASA executives?

Transcript

CHAIR: Senator Roberts. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. Let’s tidy up some loose ends. We’ve got a fresh set of questions coming in May. I asked at the previous estimates whether CASA was aware of all the incidents in relation to Qantas on a list that I circulated. Ms Spence told me that these were all ones that CASA was aware of, yet in the answer to question on notice SQ23003791 CASA clarified it actually wasn’t aware of five of the provided incidents. Can you clarify whether those events were then self-reported or if CASA had to make inquiries to Qantas to initiate those reports? 

Ms Spence: Sorry, I don’t think that was at the last hearings. Was it at the hearing before that you raised those issues? 

Senator ROBERTS: It was October-November 2023. 

Ms Spence: It wasn’t at our last hearings, I don’t think. 

Senator ROBERTS: That’s the date I’ve got written on the Hansard reference. 

Ms Spence: Sorry, I’ll have to take that on notice. I don’t have the information in front of me. Apologies. 

Senator ROBERTS: So, presumably, the answer, presumably from CASA, says that four of the five incidents—they say in brackets afterwards, ‘this event has now been reported’. So at the time it wasn’t. 

Ms Spence: Sorry, I genuinely don’t have that document in front of me so I can’t— 

Senator ROBERTS: I’m telling you what the document says. 

Ms Spence: I know. And it’s very difficult for me not having it in front of me to be able to explain what the context was. 

Senator ROBERTS: Would you like to make a copy of this? 

Mr Marcelja: Sorry, I’m just looking for it as well. 

Ms Spence: I know the document you’re talking about, but I genuinely thought it was— 

Mr Marcelja: A bit further back. 

Ms Spence: My recollection was that you raised a list, and we said we thought most of them would have been covered. The reason we took it on notice was to test which ones we were aware of and which ones we weren’t aware of. And the ones that— 

Senator ROBERTS: I’ll remind you that I asked you if you’d seen these incidents on the document. Without looking at the document, you said, ‘No, these are not on the document.’ 

Ms Spence: I doubt very much— 

Senator ROBERTS: Then I said, ‘Would you please look at the document before answering?’ How can you have any credibility with me? 

Ms Spence: Obviously I don’t. 

Senator ROBERTS: No, you don’t. You don’t have a lot of credibility with many pilots either. 

Ms Spence: I’m sorry. I just genuinely don’t. I’ll take on notice what it means when we say ‘this event has now been reported’. 

Senator ROBERTS: You also told me that the frequency of incidents on the list that I gave you, before you’d seen it, was not out of the ordinary. If some of the incidents weren’t reported to you then it’s hard for you to say that there isn’t an increase in frequency, correct? 

Ms Spence: That’s correct. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. If you look at the last one there, the October 2022 Perth-Sydney incident, it remained unreported. What is the status of your investigations on this incident? 

Ms Spence: We don’t investigate. The ATSB investigates. 

Senator ROBERTS: So you didn’t chase it up with Qantas? 

Ms Spence: As I said, I’ll take on notice what it means when we say ‘this event has now been reported’ and what we did, but at the end of the day we do not do accident or incident investigations. Unidentified speaker: If I could— 

Senator ROBERTS: I’m going to ask the questions here. That might be the question you’d like me to ask. 

Ms Spence: No. 

Senator ROBERTS: Have you inquired about that incident? 

Ms Spence: I just said I’d take that on notice. I don’t know. 

Senator ROBERTS: Okay. Let’s move on. Do you believe that senior leadership of the agency that is meant to be regulating aviation—that’s your agency—having access to the exclusive Qantas Chairman’s Lounge and Virgin Beyond Lounge creates a conflict of interest? 

Ms Spence: No. 

Senator ROBERTS: Not even as a potential perceived conflict of interest? 

Ms Spence: No. 

Senator ROBERTS: In the May 2022 Senate estimates your evidence was that all gifts and benefits were listed on your website under the gifts and benefits register. That wasn’t true, was it? 

Ms Spence: I thought that they all were on the list. I haven’t deliberately misled the committee. If something wasn’t included, I apologise. But everything is certainly on the register now. 

Senator ROBERTS: Now? 

Ms Spence: And has been for some time. 

Senator ROBERTS: If you put it on the register, that means you think it was a gift. But you told me it wasn’t a gift. 

Mr Marcelja: We were pretty clear in our written response that those memberships predated people joining CASA. We clarified that. 

Senator ROBERTS: I’ll get to that. That’s clarified in your opinion, but it doesn’t clarify it so far as the Public Service Association is concerned. Senior members of the aviation regulator had been given access to exclusive airline clubs that aren’t available to the public, and this was kept a secret from Australians. Yet you maintain that this doesn’t create even a potential conflict of interest. 

Ms Spence: I don’t accept the premise that it was kept a secret. 

Senator ROBERTS: We’ll get to that one too. This explanation from the Australian Public Service Commission is very important: “… Public confidence in APS agencies and the APS more broadly can be damaged when gifts and benefits that create a conflict of interest are accepted or not properly declared. The appearance of a conflict can be just as damaging to public confidence in public administration as a conflict which gives rise to a concern based on objective facts”. Having gifted access to exclusive aviation lounges is obviously a conflict of interest when you are the aviation regulator—the aviation regulator. 

Ms Spence: No, we’re the aviation safety regulator. 

Senator ROBERTS: This is regardless of whether the benefit predates the official’s employment, and this was not declared. 

Ms Spence: I genuinely don’t recall us not being on the register—of me having Chairman’s Lounge and Virgin Beyond lounge membership. When I was in the department and first received those invitations to join those, it’s always been something that I’ve declared in any of my potential conflicts of interest. Notwithstanding that, I genuinely don’t believe it creates a conflict of interest. 

Senator ROBERTS: Let me continue. It’s very concerning to me that you try to tell this committee that all benefits were declared on the gift register at a time they clearly were not. You made no mention of the fact that you had updated the register with these gifts— 

Mr Marcelja: Senator, we— 

Senator ROBERTS: Mr Marcelja, I’m trying to talk! 

Ms Spence: Just— 

Senator ROBERTS: You just quietly updated the webpage and tried to act like those things had been there properly for the entire time, and that’s not the case, is it? The gifts weren’t on the register at the time you gave evidence to this committee that they were. Ms Spence: Senator, I’ll have to take that on notice. I genuinely thought that they were always on the register. If they weren’t, they’re certainly on there now and it has never been a secret that I’ve had those lounge memberships. 

Senator ROBERTS: Ms Spence, it seems that it’s contemptuous of this committee for you to try and just quietly update this information in the secretive manner that you have. Why not alert the committee that the previous evidence was incorrect and issue a clarification, which is what most honest public servants do? 

Ms Spence: As we said in our response to your question, nothing was declared on the CASA gifts and benefits register as no lounge access had actually been provided to CASA executives or board members as a result of their roles in CASA. 

Senator ROBERTS: That’s a furphy, Ms Spence! They have done— 

Ms Spence: It’s not a furphy, Senator! 

Senator ROBERTS: You’re making out that they had them before they joined CASA. 

Ms Spence: They did—I did. 

Senator ROBERTS: They still have them— 

Ms Spence: Yes. 

Senator ROBERTS: and they weren’t declared. Then, when you updated it to declare them, you didn’t advise the committee. You just did it quietly. 

Ms Spence: I’m genuinely sorry that you feel that I’ve misled the committee— 

Senator ROBERTS: It isn’t my feelings that matter! It’s the facts that matter— 

Ms Spence: Well, I apologise to the committee unreservedly, but there was never any intention to mislead. As I said, the issue, as far as I can recall, was because you list things as they’re provided to you, and because they were already in the possession of myself and some of our board members prior to them actually being on the board they must not have been listed originally. They’re on there now, and I have nothing else I can say. 

CHAIR: Senator Roberts, does this— 

Senator ROBERTS: It’s my last question. This brings much of the evidence that you’ve given to this committee into question, Ms Spence, if this is how you deal with answers that you later find are incorrect. We wouldn’t even know this unless someone had trawled back through the internet archives. You have apologised; is there anything else you need to apologise for in our exchanges? 

Ms Spence: No, Senator. 

Senator ROBERTS: I don’t see you as a credible witness with your evidence, Ms Spence. 

CHAIR: What I might do, Senator Roberts, due to the hour, is this. I have kept saying all day that we have that report about behaviour—you know what it is—and you have made your point. Ms Spence, it is sloppy— 

Ms Spence: Yes. 

CHAIR: Let’s get over it. The behaviour of politicians in this building over the last few years is pretty questionable too—but anyway! Senator Roberts, do you have further— 

Senator ROBERTS: I have finished my questions, thank you, Chair. 

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The Government’s Health Department Hides from a Royal Commission into COVID

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In January, the Senate held a committee inquiry into appropriate Terms of Reference for a Royal Commission into COVID. This is the Royal Commission the Prime Minister promised during the election campaign, which Senator Gallagher also promised. Instead the Prime Minister called a review of the government’s response, which excludes state and territory responses.

Many have slammed the Prime Minister’s COVID review panel as a “toothless tiger” and support a Royal Commission instead. Doctors, unions, human rights lawyers, vaccine injured, and Royal Commission experts were among the witnesses who provided submissions and gave evidence at the Senate inquiry tasked with proposing Terms of Reference for a future COVID Royal Commission.

Why did the Government Health Department not partake in this inquiry? Could it be to avoid scrutiny from the Committee that would result from making a submission? Judge for yourself.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: The department and its agencies did not make a submission to the Senate inquiry into appropriate terms of reference for a possible future royal commission into COVID. I would have thought, Minister, that the department that ran our COVID response would be the first to put forward its position on the matter. Why the silence? Is the department hiding from committee scrutiny? 

Senator McCarthy: We do have an inquiry underway—an independent one—looking into COVID, so I reject outright your question. 

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Pharma Exclusivity in TGA Processes a Barrier to Natural Products

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Before a drug or natural therapy can be approved by the “regulator” — the TGA — it must have a sponsor whose job is to pay the license fee, fill out the paperwork, and prepare safety and efficacy reports. These can be overseas because we no longer require local trials for new drugs. Drug companies are happy to develop new drugs and sponsor the applications because they have 25 years to get their money back from the patent which gives them exclusive rights to the product’s profits. After that, a product can be ‘generic’ or off-patent and any pharma company can make it.

Natural products such as cannabis and Aboriginal medicine from native plants cannot be patented which means nobody can afford to act as a sponsor. The result is the only thing doctors can prescribe are patented or ‘generic’ pharmaceutical drugs. I asked why there is not an office of the consumer advocate who can sponsor natural therapies like Cannabis and Albicidin (a natural antibiotic). Instead, the TGA chose to speak about their program to re-purpose pharmaceutical drugs that have already been approved for different uses. This answer really shows the pharmaceutical mindset our health administrators have.

The legislation needs to be changed to give natural products a path to market.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. That leads to another point. It opens it up from this one. We have a system that says that, unless a product has a sponsor, it will never be approved. This isn’t the TGA system. They don’t write policy. This is a department and minister problem. There are multiple studies on the efficacy of medicinal cannabis for some conditions, and yet they’re not listed in schedule 4. There are 150 substances in Aboriginal medicine, yet only two have been commercialised, because natural products, even with postprocessing, can’t be approved by your system, because, without a patent, nobody will sponsor the product. Minister, why is there not a public advocate within the department that can bring natural remedies to the people under poison schedules 2, 3, 4 under the PBS where appropriate? 

Senator McCarthy: I will refer to the department. 

Prof. Lawler : As you highlighted and as we’ve discussed previously, the act does require a sponsor to bring medicines for evaluation. There are a number of reasons for this, and not least among them is the fact that, once a medicine is listed on the Register of Therapeutic Goods, there is a need for postmarket surveillance, pharmacovigilance, and safety and quality assurance, so it’s obviously very important that there be a point of accountability for these medicines. We are undertaking some work in terms of a repurposing initiative, and I will ask Mr Henderson to speak to that. It is about ways in which some of the medicines that are currently on the market can be used in other ways and how that might extend beyond the current sponsorship arrangements. 

Mr Henderson : As part of the last budget, the government approved funding of roughly $10 million over four years for the TGA to initiate a repurposing program for medicines. The context or the objective of that program is to incentivise sponsors—and non-pharmaceutical sponsors as part of that as well—to come forward with submissions to the TGA for medicines that are predominantly used off label. They are registered on the ARTG, the Australian Register of Therapeutic Goods, but for indications for which it may not have been feasible for low-population groups or niche population groups to have had a sponsor come forward in the past, so we’re looking to implement a program where we incentivise through waiving fees associated with the regulatory fees and charges as well as through working closely with our colleagues in the reimbursement space in relation to processes through the PBAC, pharmaceutical benefits and fee waivers. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. So there may be some hope. 

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“Trust Me, I’m Not from the Government”

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Trust in the Government has slumped since COVID. This decline in confidence is impacting even independent statutory bodies and authorities that would have once relied on their government connection to lend them credibility.

Following a ‘Sentiments Survey’ among members of the public and licence holders, the Murray-Darling Basin Authority (MDBA) has now applied to remove the Australian Government coat-of-arms and other government ‘branding’ from their public facing material including the clothing they wear to Field Days. They’re essentially having to rebrand to rebuild trust — “rebuilding trust” seems to be the theme for 2024.

The Australian public, including water licence holders, perceive a lack of independence and therefore they mistrust the MDBA. On one hand, it’s becoming a challenge for the MDBA to engage with the public over perceptions they’re from the government, which can’t be trusted, yet on the other hand, the MDBA still makes use of the Government coat-of-arms on published reports to provide a sense of authority when its needed.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for appearing again. It is good to see you, Mr Grant. 

Mr Grant: You too, Senator. 

Senator ROBERTS: I have some questions about the sentiment survey. Who is surveyed, how many people are surveyed and how are they selected? 

Mr Grant: I don’t have those exact figures before me in my notes, but we are happy to provide them to you. 

Senator ROBERTS: But could you talk about them now—not the exact numbers; we will get those on notice. Perhaps you could talk about how you make sure this survey is accurate and representative. 

Mr Blacker: It is critically important that the design of that survey has a method which makes sure that we capture all of the various sentiments at different locations. We look at geographic representation, at volume and at the ability to show a ‘representative’. So there is the number of people to whom we speak and the different categories of how we speak to them—whether face to face, in focus groups, online or via telephone. We use a range of different methods. We break that down to capture all of the different aspects across the basin geographically that are going to represent that. Then we break down the results accordingly. 

Senator ROBERTS: So that selection process is done internally. 

Mr Grant: It is conducted by the contracted survey company ORIMA. 

Senator ROBERTS: So you specify the broad range of people, and then they will do the selection? 

Mr Blacker: They do the selection and make sure that it is statistically valid and that the results are reliable. 

Senator ROBERTS: Perhaps you could comment on the decrease in perceptions of independence and who they are referring to as being not as independent; is that you? 

Mr Grant: The public broadly, as well as water licenceholders. 

Senator ROBERTS: So the public generally perceive a decrease in independence? 

Mr Grant: Yes. 

Senator ROBERTS: Is that of your office? 

Mr Grant: Yes, it is more their perception of our independence. An example that came out of the survey was that with any material that says ‘the Hon. Troy Grant’ they think I am a government representative. So we are removing that from our publications. On any of our promotional material we have the Inspector-General logo. Because we are funded by the Australian government, the Australian government coat of arms sits on our shirt. So when we go to a field day like AgQuip and engage with people, the sentiment is: ‘I am not talking to you; you’re just another mob from the government.’ We have that conversation, explaining that we are independent, and then they engage thoroughly. For that type of thing, we have inquired and sought approval to not have that on our clothing when we are at field days, et cetera. But there is a flipside to that. Being the body we are, the reports we produce and publish have the coat of arms on them because it gives them that authority figure. So there are two parts to the sentiment in that regard. 

CHAIR: That would make it hard to manage. On the one hand it is an upside, and on the other hand it is not. 

Mr Grant: We consider ourselves to be the ‘little engine that could’, so we overcome any challenges. 

Mr Blacker: We break the ‘who’ down by groups so that we can see the different types of things people are telling us. We look at community as a broad, we look at water licenceholders and we look at First Nations. We break the results down by category. Each one of those, again, is built to be statistically valid through the methodology. 

Senator ROBERTS: The comment about independence would indicate to me that, if they perceive that you are from the government and they are a bit wary, there is not so much trust for the government involved in the Murray-Darling Basin. 

Mr Grant: There is a general sentiment of distrust of all governments out there, from what we are hearing. 

Senator ROBERTS: I wasn’t talking about the Albanese government; I meant the federal government. 

CHAIR: Any government. 

Mr Grant: My answer is that all governments are perceived that way. 

CHAIR: Like all politicians. 

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Australia’s Imported Crime Wave

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In light of the crime wave sweeping our nation, I asked the Department of Home Affairs what they’re doing to ensure Australian’s security and to make sure we are not continuing to import violence and terror into Australia.

As it turns out, those illegal immigrants released included murderers, rapists and child sex offenders and the government chose not to say where in the community these persons were living. Of the 149 detainees released, 24 have already re-offended.

The Department did not provide any information that would diminish concerns about safety in the community, other than to say they were being monitored (not very well).

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, Chair, and thank you for appearing today. I’m going to ask questions in Outcome 3 about the High Court decision that resulted in terrorists being released.

CHAIR: We’re in Outcome 2.

Senator ROBERTS: That’s correct. We’re in Outcome 2. The Queensland government’s casual, relaxed approach to crime has people worried. Last week we had a series of violent crimes by African immigrants, including the horrendous stabbing and killing of a grandmother in a car theft near Brisbane in broad daylight last week while she was out shopping with her six-year-old granddaughter. These incidents are spreading further fear in the community of activities of violent immigrants who have not been assimilated into the Australian notions and culture of nonviolence. Given the current record immigration levels, what actions are being taken by Home Affairs to ensure the security of Australians from imported risks of violence and terror?

Mr Willard: I might make a few comments in response. Anyone who applies for a visa from outside Australia is subject to the same criteria for the granting of that visa, regardless of their nationality. It involves assessments of their character, security, health and a range of other items. So that’s the first threshold in terms of visa consideration. I am aware of the tragic incident, which received a lot of media reporting. I don’t want to go into the details of the incident, but in the normal course of events, if someone were a visa holder, there might be consideration given to cancelling a visa if someone was subsequently convicted of an offence. In respect of this particular matter, it remains a criminal matter for the courts. I would make the point, though, that it doesn’t necessarily follow that the people involved were immigrants. From our initial considerations, the people involved were not visa holders.

Senator ROBERTS: I have two questions from that. The first is that you and I are both public servants, and what I’m doing is relaying some of my constituents’ fears. I’m serving my constituents, and many constituents in Queensland are afraid of the crime wave that’s taking over our state. How many people have had their visas revoked and been deported in the last 10 years?

Mr Willard: That actually sits in outcome 3. I can try to provide some information on visa cancellations at that time.

Senator ROBERTS: Visa cancellations due to criminal activities?

Mr Willard: That’s an item in Outcome 3, when we look at visa compliance.

Senator ROBERTS: Okay. I’ll be back.

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Good Manufacturing Practice and the COVID “Vaccines”

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I have been asking the Health Department across multiple estimates a simple question. Every drug approved in Australia must be made using Good Manufacturing Practice (GMP), which is a detailed standard to ensure quality and consistency in manufacturing of pharmaceutical products.

If the “speed of science” prevented using GMP then say so. Instead, the TGA and Health Department has bobbed and weaved to prevent giving me a straight answer, and today is no different.

The last response I got was to send me a list of GMP certificates issued to Pfizer. There was no ability to check the certificates back to the injection batch numbers. This looks to me like there is a coverup to hide that the vaccines were not produced using GMP until late in the rollout. This was a decision that was not open to the TGA to make. Accepting products made in a rush may have been why the original doses were accompanied by such a high and unpredictable rate of harm. I will continue to pursue this matter.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Let’s move to good manufacturing practice. I have just two questions left. At the last estimates, I tried to get to the bottom of whether every batch of Pfizer COVID injections was made using good manufacturing processes. If they were not, that may explain the huge variance in adverse events between batches. If they were made with good manufacturing processes, there is another cause we really need to understand for the huge number of excess deaths. In your answer on notice, you did not answer the question, but you gave me a list of entries in your manufacturing information database. This is a little confusing, because your answer does not allow me to check good manufacturing process certificates off against batch numbers. What your data tells me is that all of these good manufacturing process certificates were issued as a result of a desktop audit rather than an in-person inspection, which means you took the manufacturers’ word for it based on whatever it was they sent you. Is that correct?

Prof. Lawler : Thank you for the question. I would just highlight that we’ve received these questions regarding the batch testing of vaccines and the associated release a number of times before, and we’ve answered these questions—most recently, I think, SQ23-002145. Those answers are clearly on the record.

Senator ROBERTS: That’s not the one I have. Secondly, there are 44 good manufacturing process certificates for all COVID vaccines, yet there are 410 batches listed in your COVID vaccine batch release assessment. Some of those are duplications and some, admittedly, are for AstraZeneca, but the number seems off. Can you please give me on notice a full list of Pfizer batch numbers and the corresponding good manufacturing process—or is it true that good manufacturing process was only used from the bivalent vaccines onwards?

Prof. Lawler : Thank you for the question. I’m happy to either take that on notice or to return to that under outcome 1.8 when my—

Senator ROBERTS: Perhaps you could take it on notice.

Prof. Lawler : Absolutely.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you.

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