PART 1

Senator Roberts: Thank you for being here again today. Firstly, Minister Farrell, thank you for  arranging the briefing by Mr Rogers and his team.

Senator Farrell: You’re always welcome, Senator, and if you have any other questions I’m sure the commissioner or his team would be very happy to help. And that invitation I extend to all senators.

Senator Roberts: We appreciate the briefing. We were very pleased with the briefing—the way it was conducted; the thoroughness of it. My apologies for not being there, but I got caught up in the Senate, I think, at the time. Anyway, the briefing was most helpful and cleared up a lot of questions that we had—a lot from constituents, of course. It’s very important for the AEC to have the confidence of the people of Australia in election results. I’ve got some follow-up questions, because constituents deserve an answer. It impacts on election credibility. In the meeting with my staff, you mentioned that the electoral rolls had been audited twice in the last 10 years, and I’d understood that the details of those audits would be sent through. We haven’t received them yet. Can you provide more details, please, of those audits?

Mr Rogers: I might just get Ms Gleeson to step up momentarily. I’ll follow up and find out what we said at that meeting and what we promised to provide, and we’ll provide whatever information we have on that.  But while I’ve got the floor, for the reasons that you said, it’s important, I think for Australians to have faith in the electoral system. It is great news, I think, that first of all the electoral roll is at 97.2 per cent completeness. It really is in many cases the envy of the democratic world, which is great. As to the processes that we have in place to ensure high integrity, Australians can be very satisfied with that. I think, in fact—I’m looking at Ms Gleeson—we put online every year the results of that.

Ms Gleeson: The Annual Roll Integrity Review is conducted yearly, and those results are available on the website.

Mr Rogers: And not only that. Every transaction we undertake with the roll—and there are millions on an annual basis—is an integrity transaction in any case. It’s interesting—it’s important, I should say—to reflect on what ‘integrity’ means with the roll, because there are two components for integrity which are very critical for us to think about. One is to make sure that only the individuals who should be on the roll are on the roll, and that’s a really critically important part. But the second part of integrity, internationally accepted, is to make sure that everyone who should be on the roll is included on the roll as well. So with those two metrics in mind—those two guardrails—over the last decade the AEC has gone to great extents to grow the roll and also to look at those aspects of the roll where individual groups have been underrepresented. As we said before, youth and Indigenous Australians have been traditionally underrepresented. We’ve been doing a lot of work in that regard, and we’re very satisfied with what we’ve done with that.

Senator Roberts: Thank you. Ms Gleeson, I want to understand the details of the audits on the rolls. I think the last ANAO audit of the Australian Electoral Commission was in 2013, with a report that came out two years later, in 2015. So could you please send the details that were promised at that meeting?

Mr Rogers: Yes, sure.

Ms Gleeson: Of course.

Senator Roberts: Thank you. We don’t know what it audited, what the specific findings were and what rolls were involved, and it was 10 years ago. This is a follow-up question regarding the new audit provided in section 273AA of the Commonwealth Electoral Act, requiring a substantive audit of the Australian Electoral Commission computer systems by an auditor accredited by the Australian Signals Directorate.. Can you confirm that that audit is underway, and do you have an expected return date, please?

Ms Gleeson: Senator, can you repeat the section of the act you’re referring to, please.

Senator Roberts: Section 2733AA of the Commonwealth Electoral Act.

Ms Gleeson: Section 273AA is an assurance of the security of computer systems for Senate scrutiny, or the IRAP assessment. This is an assessment conducted by a person or body accredited by ASD—that is, an IRAP assessor. It provides a draft report from the assessor with recommendations and identified risks. The AEC actions recommendations and implements appropriate mitigations to manage those risks, and a public statement is published on the AEC website stating a security risk assessment has been completed as required. For the 2022 federal election, accredited assessors completed security risk assessments of applicable systems prior to the federal election. Recommendations made were accepted by the AEC, and prior to the election appropriate mitigations were implemented to manage those risks, and a statement of assurance relating to those assessments was published on 19 May on the AEC website. I’m happy to provide the link to that statement.

Senator Roberts: Yes, please, if you could take that on notice. I’d like that link. I understand there are three audits. One is a software audit that audits the software used to allocate Senate preferences, which you passed. Another is an audit of the accuracy of scanning Senate ballot papers, which was passed as well. Mr Rogers, while you and your staff were most generous in giving your time, there was one issue the meeting did not get to, and that’s postal voting. My office received many reports of people receiving postal votes in the name of past residents in their premises—sometimes multiple ballots. I’m trying to understand the system to see if an improvement can be made or if indeed this is still best practice. This line of questioning is based on the number of reports of multiple ballots arriving at the same address in the name of residents who have not been there for years but who are still on the rolls. This suggests that a third party—maybe a political party or activists like GetUp—could be recording applications from the previous election and re-using that data to put in fake applications. Is it true that any voter can request a postal ballot by filling out the application and posting it to the Australian Electoral Commission, who ensure the person is on the rolls and, if so, send out a ballot?

Mr Rogers: I might start on that. Postal voting is a legislative part of the Australian electoral process. Not only that, it provides access to the vote for a large number of Australians who would otherwise—

Senator Roberts: We accept that.

Mr Rogers: be unable to achieve it. There is a process in place. Citizens are able to jump onto our website and make an application for a postal vote, or the way it has worked in elections is that political parties also send out applications. Regardless of where the application comes from, we do a thorough check of the information coming back, so no vote is included in the count—let me be more accurate: no elector’s vote is included in the count unless we’ve first assessed that they have an entitlement for that process. So it’s not so much about the information that goes out; it’s what comes back that’s the most critical part of that process. Perhaps Ms Gleeson might like to add to that.

Ms Gleeson: The process that Mr Rogers is referring to is preliminary scrutiny, which is a process outlined under the Commonwealth Electoral Act. That means that, when we receive back a completed postal vote, it goes through a process of checking that the information provided on the declaration certificate on the front of the postal vote is correctly completed in compliance with the Electoral Act. Then there is a check against the electoral roll to confirm that the elector is in fact enrolled and entitled for their vote to be counted. At that point, the vote is either accepted and progresses to further scrutiny or rejected and not opened.

Senator Roberts: Is it marked off once it’s accepted?

Ms Gleeson: Correct. If it is accepted it is marked off as that individual having voted.

Senator Roberts: The voter gets the application form by going to the website. Are there other ways?

Ms Gleeson: There are a range of ways that voters can access a postal vote application. Applications can be lodged online through our online postal voting application system, and the majority of voters do use that system.  There is also the option to use a paper form, which is available from our website or from AEC offices, and you’d be aware that there are also party postal vote applications, which the AEC does not issue but parties are entitled to issue under the Commonwealth Electoral Act.

Senator Roberts: So you don’t send out how-to-vote cards—sorry, postal vote application forms as a matter of course? You don’t letterbox drop; you don’t post them in the mail?

Ms Gleeson: No.

Senator Roberts: They can get them through political parties. So a political party can letterbox  postal vote applications, and, if completed by a voter, that application goes first to the political party and then to the AEC—is that correct?

Mr Rogers: That’s correct. Just to be very clear, though, because I know sometimes people get confused about that, political parties do not receive citizens’ votes. All they receive is the application form, which is then sent to us. The postal vote certificate, which includes the votes, is sent from AEC and never goes to the political parties.  It’s an important point to note because I know we get some complaints about that. And, only because you just mentioned it, Senator, I will deal at the same time with sending out how-to-vote cards. The AEC does not send out how-to-vote cards.

Senator Roberts: That was a slip of my tongue.

Mr Rogers: But sometimes we get that, and I might just opine on it, because I suspect what occasionally happens is that someone will receive possibly even a postal vote certificate from the AEC with their duly authorised postal vote, and, when they pick up the material from the letterbox and put it on their table, quite often there will be other material that’s distributed at election time. They’ll open the material and go, ‘Oh, my God, the AEC has distributed how-to-vote cards,’ because it’s on the list of materials. We do not ever distribute how-to-vote cards. It’s an important point.

Senator Roberts: There is a lot of distrust in the electorate right now because of what’s happened in the last three years. There’s been a lot of lost confidence in governments. So a political party can letterbox postal vote applications. What about the case of a renter, say, who’s just moved into his or her rental place and they’ve got five applications through the mail?

Mr Rogers: They might have received—

Senator Roberts: In different names.

Mr Rogers: I’m not aware of that, but they might have received five applications from different political parties or entities—but, again, what goes out is one thing. The important thing for us is what comes back and what we then mark off and that we then ensure that that voter has an entitlement to vote. It’s a legislative entitlement for political parties and entities to distribute postal vote applications. It’s actually enshrined in the Electoral Act. We have our own integrity measure for that coming back, and we’re confident that we’ve got processes in place that are robust.

Senator Roberts: Are there any rules around harvesting of the data by the political party?

Mr Rogers: What political parties do with the data they have is a matter for them. I know that all the political parties have databases that they use that are not controlled or contributed to by the AEC.

Senator Roberts: So can they go directly to the AEC if the applicant wants, or do they have to go through the party?

Mr Rogers: Not only that, Senator. I’m just expressing a personal preference here—I’m not annoying anyone—but if it were up to me I’d encourage citizens to come to the AEC website to apply for their postal vote application.

Senator Roberts: Chair, I am going to quickly read through some questions I’m going to submit on notice.  First, how many postal vote applications were received before the 2022 election? Second, of those, how many were duplicates—the same person applying more than once? Third, how many applications were refused after being checked on the electoral roll? Fourth, how many postal vote applications were approved and sent out? If not the same figure, please explain. Fifth, how many postal ballots were returned to the Australian Electoral Commission with a comment such as ‘not at this address’ or ‘didn’t request’, and, as a result, were any challenges issued to enrolled voters? Sixth, how many completed postal ballots were received back, whether in time to be counted or not? Seventh, how many people voted on polling day and then a postal vote was also received in their name? We’re just making sure that citizens can have confidence in the election.

Mr Rogers: We’ll provide that information. But just let me answer that last bit: citizens can have confidence in the election.

Senator Roberts: We’re getting a lot of questions that suggest they don’t. That may be due to the last three years; I don’t know.

Mr Rogers: Senator, we have one of the most transparent, robust electoral processes globally. On that, in terms of its transparency—because you raised the point that citizens need to have confidence, which we back up—we’ve given something like 12 hours of evidence at over 10 hearings since the election. We’ve submitted an untold number of submissions—43,000 words. At the election itself we made ourselves available for 400 media interviews, me included. We answered 4,000 media inquiries. Critically, one of those transparency measures was the 105,000 workers that we had who were members of the community, who were involved in every step of the process. Tens of thousands of party scrutineers were involved in that process. There was the fact that all the results were put online.  I know you know this, because you and I have spoken about this previously, but it’s always useful to remind citizens that there are so many transparency and integrity measures that underpin a really robust framework. Australian citizens should be rightly proud that we’ve got one of the most accessible electoral systems in the world, one of the most high-integrity systems and one of the most transparent. We’re very proud of that. A lot of that is due to the work of committees like this, with the legislation that buttresses the electoral system, but a lot of it also is the work of bureaucrats and members of the AEC over many, many electoral cycles, who have produced such outstanding results.  I know that you, as a member of parliament, won’t mind me saying that, because you’re aware of just how important it is that citizens do have confidence in the processes that exist. I know from time to time you ask these sorts of questions, but it’s important for me to respond that way so people understand that what we do is produce one of the world’s best electoral systems. Citizens should have great confidence in the outcomes of that process.

Senator Roberts: Thanks to your answers in past Senate estimates and our own research, on many of the questions that have been submitted to us—and we’ve had a number of topics covered—we can reassure people, which is important. There are some where we have not been able to reassure. The last election raised several issues that, bit by bit, have been resolved. The fact that we still get complaints, despite all the work you’ve done to publicise, shows how deeply entrenched that feeling is in the community.

Mr Rogers: Senator, it’s interesting—and I’m sorry for taking up your time here, but it’s worthwhile talking about that—that some of those many, many complaints, like things that we get, are not in any way tethered to the reality of the legislation or election delivery. We’re still getting stuff where people are telling us that we’re using Dominion voting machines. I’m sorry, I—

Senator Roberts: That’s an easy one.

Mr Rogers: But do you know what I mean?

Senator Roberts: I understand.

Mr Rogers: You’re talking about many complaints. If we get 10,000 people telling us we’re using Dominion voting machines, it’s irrelevant.

Senator Roberts: Yes.

Mr Rogers: That’s why it’s important for me to make those statements I made that we really do have one of the world’s best electoral systems and I’m very proud of the work that all of our staff have done. I know you’ll know this, but, every day in Australia, AEC staff do great work. We’re running close to, I think, 1,000 industrial elections of one sort or another a year. We’ve got 100,000 schoolkids most years pumping through the Electoral Education Centre here in Canberra. We’re looking after the roll. We’re working with our state colleagues. Every day, AEC staff are making a contribution to electoral integrity in Australia. It’s so important. I’m so proud of the team that support that outcome, and it’s important for the community to know that as well.

Chair: You do have to identify issues that affect the integrity of an election and respond accordingly, don’t you?

Mr Rogers: Absolutely, which is what we do on a very regular basis. Let me do another shout-out—it’s not just us; we’re supported by a range of other agencies who also assist with that matter of electoral integrity. Thank you for providing me the opportunity to say that, Senator. It’s just important for the community to understand that.

Chair: Can you think of an example, in 2013, when such an event happened?

Mr Rogers: Events like that are like a crucible, and they enable us to come out even better from the process, which is what we’ve done. It was an unfortunate circumstance in 2013. We went through a whole period afterwards analysing what we’ve done. Where we are today is significantly more advanced from that process as a result of—

Chair: As someone who lost their seat in that era, event or whatever you would call it, I express my confidence in the current processes. Thank you for your evidence today.

PART 2

Senator Roberts: The remaining questions go mostly to how ballots are moved. The movement of ballot papers continues to be something that constituents ask my office about a lot. The Australian Electoral Commission moves ballots from prepolls to regional counting centres as required to facilitate counting. Is that correct?

Mr Rogers: That’s correct.

Senator Roberts: The movement is done by AEC staff in private cars—their own cars, presumably. The ballot boxes are sealed and there is a movement log to control the process. Is that correct?

Mr Rogers: That’s correct. And each of the ballot boxes is sealed in the polling place in the presence of scrutineers. The seal numbers are recorded. So, that’s a tracked process.

Senator Roberts: Having scrutineered, I can verify that—for the actual location, not the movement. Can I have a sample of a movement log, please, with personal identifying information redacted?

Mr Rogers: No, Senator. The time for the asking of those questions was in the 40-day period after the conclusion of the election, where those records are retained and opened for people to examine. But in terms of movement logs, they are certifications that are, to provide a chain of custody, signed by the officers at each point of the process. It is inherently personal, with their names, signatures, and other issues, so I won’t provide that.

Senator Roberts: Okay. I accept that. Does the log have the time that the staff member left the prepoll location and the time the ballots were signed into the regional counting centre?

Mr Rogers: I’m not sure—possibly.

Senator Roberts: There is a possibility that they could be left in the car overnight in the driveway, for example?

Mr Rogers: No. The material is returned.

Senator Roberts: Yes, but what’s the time elapsed from when it’s removed, picked up, and when it’s deposited?

Mr Rogers: They leave the polling place and then go back to the outposted centre for the material to be collated and checked in.

Senator Roberts: Directly?

Mr Rogers: Directly.

Senator Roberts: Do you require staff who are transporting ballots to travel from point to point, so they’re required to go straight from the prepoll to the regional polling centre?

Mr Rogers: That’s generally the assumption.

Senator Roberts: It’s an assumption. Do you require that?

Ms Gleeson: As you can imagine, there are hundreds of thousands of logistics routes that ballot papers travel during the course of an event, and each movement of ballot papers is planned and is signed off by the appropriate supervisor at the AEC.

Senator Roberts: The actual route used?

Ms Gleeson: Yes. We do route planning, and there are exception processes if there’s—

Senator Roberts: A flood?

Ms Gleeson: a long route to be travelled and a documented reason as to why a long route needs to be travelled. Our documentation supports that and is appropriately signed off, but there are a number of permutations that the movement may take, depending on the complex logistics that the ballot papers have to travel.

Senator Roberts: Could concerns about the integrity of these ballots running around in private cars be alleviated by using secure point-to-point couriers equipped with GPS, as couriers are these days?

Mr Pope: I don’t think there’d be enough trucks in Australia—I’m serious.

Mr Rogers: We’re talking about 8,000 polling places. We’ve already got 105,000 staff. Quite often these movements occur late in the evening. Effectively, that’s a process that’s used not only at federal elections but also at state elections and has been used for 120 years without any mishaps. So, I’m very confident in the processes we’ve got in place.

Senator Roberts: So, it’s not a matter of cost, because the minister’s just allocated $364 million for a referendum. It’s about logistics.

Mr Rogers: It would be a huge matter of cost, let alone of whether there is actually that number of trucks available at that time in Australia in those locations to do it.

Senator Roberts: That’s what Mr—Price, is it?—said.

Mr Rogers: Pope.

Mr Pope: Pope.

Senator Roberts: Pope—sorry. Have you personally examined the seal the AEC uses to seal the ballot box? Have you tried to open it without detection and generally assured yourself that it’s fit for purpose?

Mr Rogers: As it happens, I have.

Senator Roberts: Good.

Mr Rogers: I’m very happy with those seals, and I’m very happy with the process that we have in place.

Senator Roberts: Can I have one to examine?

Mr Rogers: Sure.

Senator Roberts: Thank you. Maybe that’s a perfect video topic for you to quell any lack of confidence.  For clarity, please: videos showing the movement of ballot boxes posted online appear to show four seals on a ballot box. Is that correct?

Mr Rogers: I haven’t seen the video that you’re talking about, Senator.

Ms Gleeson: We have a range of types of ballot box, Senator. It depends on which one you’re referring to.

Senator Roberts: Okay. Each of the seals has a unique number?

Ms Gleeson: Correct.

Senator Roberts: All seals are accounted for at the end of the count?

Mr Rogers: They’re accounted for in the process of movement. They’re recorded at the point of departure.  They’re recorded at the point of arrival. So, in that sense, they’re accounted for.

Senator Roberts: Were any missing in the 2022 federal election, and were any duplicate seals, fake seals or boxes with broken seals detected?

Mr Rogers: No, absolutely not.

Senator Roberts: Do you do a reconciliation on ballot papers printed and ballot papers accounted for at the end of the process?

Mr Rogers: Yes, we do.

Senator Roberts: What was the figure in May ’22 for unders or overs? Zero would be impossible, of course; we understand the logistics effort. There had to be some variance. What is that variance?

Ms Gleeson: Could you clarify what you mean by ‘unders’ and ‘overs’, please, Senator.

Senator Roberts: Well, comparing ballot papers printed and ballot papers accounted for, sometimes one would be higher than the other. So what is that variance?

Ms Gleeson: We don’t have that to hand.

Senator Roberts: No, you wouldn’t have it here.

Mr Rogers: Let me take that on notice, Senator.

Senator Roberts: That’s fine. Thank you. Are watermarks on a ballot paper a feasible security option?

Ms Gleeson: Our ballot papers are watermarked, Senator.

Senator Roberts: Okay. That shows you I don’t pay much attention! Close enough!

Ms Gleeson: It’s deliberately difficult to detect, perhaps, but very obvious to electoral administrators.

Senator Roberts: This is just a matter of curiosity: are you examining online voting? I know some university academics have a system for secure online voting using blockchain technology. Minister or Mr Rogers?

Mr Rogers: Well, Senator, it’s a very interesting question, but, if you wanted a very short answer, the answer would be no. For us, paper based voting has a number of security aspects that are almost impossible to replicate online. But I guess there is a point at which, at some point in the future, supply of paper and printing is going to be an issue for Australia in the sort of quantities that we’re talking about. We’re not there yet, but, at a point, that will need to be looked at. But, just to be very clear, we’re not examining any online or electronic voting system for use in any federal election, referendum or by-election.

Senator Roberts: I’m with you. I like the paper system. It’s very hard to corrupt, because there are always people around. Will you be using scanning to count the referendum, or a manual count?

Mr Rogers: A manual count.

Senator Roberts: That’s why the cost is so high—$364 million.

Mr Rogers: Handcrafted.

Senator Roberts: Sorry?

Mr Rogers: Handcrafted.

Senator Roberts: Ha, ha! And how will scrutineers be picked? It’s not a matter of parties having scrutineers they can put them forward but some people loosely on a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ campaign. How will you select scrutineers?

Mr Rogers: The legislation is slightly different for the appointment of scrutineers at a referendum. It can be through the registered officers of political parties, but the state governors and the Governor-General can also appoint scrutineers. That’s pretty much the process, I think.

Mr Pope: The state governors and the Governor-General can appoint an authorised person who can appoint those scrutineers on their behalf.  But, just to be precise around your question, it’s got nothing to do with us. It’s not our appointment.

Senator Roberts: I know. That’s what I’m getting at: who does it? I didn’t think you’d be appointing them.

Mr Pope: Oh, I thought you said, ‘How are you appointing scrutineers?’

Senator Roberts: I’m sorry. I meant: how will you allow scrutineers in?

Mr Rogers: Again, the registered officers of registered political parties, state governors and the Governor-General.

Senator Roberts: Thank you.