Concerns Raised Over Smart Meter Practices

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I raised concerns about the use of smart meters, highlighting that they are being used by some companies to gouge customers without informed consent. Customers are often switched to punitive plans and charged excessively based on their peak usage, even if it occurs infrequently.

Ms. Savage clarified the distinction between network and retail tariffs and explained that the Australian Energy Market Commission (AEMC) is proposing new rules to protect consumers. These rules would require customers to opt into time-of-use tariffs and provide a three-year period during which they cannot be automatically switched to such tariffs.

I asked what were the tangible benefits of smart meters for consumers and was told smart meters help manage peak demand and reduce the need for network investment, ultimately benefiting consumers by keeping bills down. That seems to be a hollow promise given power bills have only gone up for many people who have had smart meters installed.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for appearing again today. We’ve discussed at length—I think it was with you, Ms Savage—smart meters. You’ve regularly touted that they are a good thing, and you’ve spoken about the Australian Energy Regulator’s need to have them rolled out as widely as possible as quickly as possible. 

Ms Savage: That’s not us. That would be the Australian Energy Market Commission who’s talked about that. 

Senator ROBERTS: What’s actually happening is that smart meters are being used to gouge customers. Many companies are not getting informed consent from consumers before changing customers over to incredibly punitive plans. Then those smart meters are being used to pinpoint the exact time someone is using their maximum amount of power, and the companies are charging the customer as if they’re doing that the entire period. What we’ve heard of is, for example, a family might be away on holiday for a couple of weeks. They come back near the end of the month, and they throw everything in the dryer and the washing machine. Their demand goes way up, and they’re charged at that rate for the whole month. That’s clearly gouging them. Are there no protections for the consumer who wants to have their smart meter removed, and what are you doing to crack down on those predatory power companies? 

Ms Savage: Thank you for the question. I think there’s just a distinction I’d like to make between a network tariff and a retail tariff. The electricity rules require network tariffs to become increasingly cost reflective, but a retailer’s job is to manage the risk on behalf of customers. As you can imagine, the price of power in the wholesale market fluctuates every day between minus $1,000 and $17,000. 

Senator ROBERTS: It does these days, yes. 

Ms Savage: It always has, actually. The cap has been different, but it’s always been highly volatile in the NEM. A retailer’s job is to package up a product for a customer that manages that risk for them. Networks have a set of cost-reflective tariffs that they show to retailers as well because of the way in which the cost of a network is really about the maximum use of the network. If all of us in this room decided to turn everything on at exactly the same time, the network has to be built big enough to accommodate that. I’m sure you can appreciate that. What the network is doing is giving to the retailer a signal about when they’ve got more or less capacity available in their network, and then retailers package up that network signal and that wholesale signal and give it to a retailer. The Australian Energy Market Commission has recognised that, with the rollout of smart meters, more and more customers are being put on to tariffs that they may not understand, the sort of tariff you just described, so they’ve actually got a draft report out at the moment which is suggesting that there should be a longer period of time for customers. Three years I think is what they’ve proposed, and Mr Duggan might want to talk a little bit more about this, given it’s not my agency, but they’re giving customers a three-year window where retailers can’t put them on to a time-of-use tariff. Even if they get a smart meter, they couldn’t go automatically on to one of those time-of-use tariffs. Did you want to add to that? 

Mr Duggan: Just two additional things. It must be an opt in. Under what’s being proposed by the AEMC, you must opt into a time-of-use tariff, not be forced on a time-of-use tariff. The other element is, if you choose not to opt in, then you continue to face the flat tariff you would’ve before—building in additional consumer protections. 

Ms Savage: For the three years. 

Mr Duggan: For the three years. 

Senator ROBERTS: What protections are available in the National Electricity Rules for consumers against power companies that are using the smart meters you’re encouraging to be installed to gouge people? 

Ms Savage: This rule change that Simon has just referred to I’ve referred to will put that protection in place. 

Senator ROBERTS: Is that what’s it’s designed to do? Is that why you’re bringing it in? 

Ms Savage: Yes. 

Senator ROBERTS: What tangible benefit are consumers supposedly getting out of smart meters? 

Ms Savage: It’s a really great question. I’m going to give you a bit of a techie answer, but in Victoria, where we’ve had smart meters for some time, when we look at the rate of asset utilisation and the distribution system and compare to jurisdictions that don’t have smart meters, there is actually much higher utilisation. We see utilisation rates in the high 70s, whereas the average utilisation rate across the National Electricity Market is more like 43 per cent. Part of that is because the smart— 

Senator ROBERTS: How do you measure utilisation? 

Ms Savage: How much network is built to meet peak demand versus how much latent for the rest of the day. 

Senator ROBERTS: Is the idea to try and decrease the amount of peak network capacity? 

Ms Savage: It’s to try to ensure that, basically, we ‘ve got loads filling up the holes in the day so we’re not building too much network, that’s right. What you see in Victoria is the level of utilisation is much greater, so the overall network cost is much smaller. Customers are really benefitting from the reduced need to invest in networks, because of improved utilisation, so that’s one benefit. We also— 

Senator ROBERTS: Excuse me, Ms Savage. Is that because consumers know when to utilise the network? 

Ms Savage: That’s part of it, and it can be the visibility the network has over some of these assets as well. I know you and I have talked before about some of the different types of tariffs that exist in Queensland, like controlled load tariffs et cetera, particularly with pool pumps and things like that. Being able to move these types of discretionary loads—not heating, cooling, dishwashers or lights, but some of those moveable loads through the day—can actually avoid investment in the network, which is a great thing for consumers in keeping bills down. 

Senator ROBERTS: Last question related to smart meters. I raised at a previous session the issue of air conditioners being throttled by power companies. You seemed unaware of that issue when I raised it. Have you had time to review the article I supplied confirming that actually did happen at an alarming frequency? I think it was six times in a matter of months. 

Ms Savage: I think that was a question about the PeakSmart device. You gave it to us on notice, and we’ve responded on notice. Is that correct, Steph? Yes. 

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Urgent Reforms Are Needed to Address NDIS Fraud and Inefficiencies

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During the November Senate Estimates, I raised significant concerns about the National Disability Insurance Scheme (NDIS). Since its inception, the NDIS has faced numerous challenges, including ineffective costing and planning, resulting in unmet needs for vulnerable individuals. The program is plagued by massive fraud and a forecasted budget cost of $90 to $100 billion.

I questioned why many direct care providers remain unpaid while fraudsters exploit the system for millions. Despite the scheme’s noble intentions, it is clear that implementation issues need urgent attention. I emphasised the need for effective measures to address these problems and ensure that every dollar benefits those who need it most.

The NDIS agency acknowledged the challenges and highlighted initiatives like the Fraud Fusion Taskforce, which aims to crack down on unscrupulous providers. I stressed the importance of fixing these systemic issues to restore public trust and ensure the scheme’s integrity.

I remain committed to advocating for a well-implemented NDIS that truly serves the needs of Australians with disabilities.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, Chair. Thank you for appearing today. The NDIS has been a problematic program since inception. That doesn’t reflect on you guys. It is not effectively costed or thought through. At the
time, it seemed to be a headline looking for a preselection buzz for the Labor Party under Julia Gillard. The program is failing on multiple levels resulting in the needs of vulnerable people remaining unmet and other
stakeholders being ignored. There is massive fraud plus a forecast budget cost of around $90 billion to $100 billion. That is what people are telling us. Why is it that many direct care providers remain unpaid while at the same time many rorters and unscrupulous fraudsters are able to rip off the system to the tune of millions of dollars? It seems to be systematic, rife, organised ripping off. The public is being taken for a ride for billions of dollars yet some agencies pay the bare minimum to untrained carers. Some carers are not paid at all. Why is that?

Senator Ayres: I suppose, Senator Roberts, the first thing to do is to respond to the initial set of assertions. Of course, you will be unsurprised to learn that’s not the government’s view at all about the value of the scheme for Australians. There are many families in Queensland who rely upon—

Senator ROBERTS: Minister, that’s not what my questions—

CHAIR: Senator Roberts. Senator Ayres, continue your answer. I will listen carefully if there is a point of order.

Senator ROBERTS: I did not say the scheme was not worthy.

Senator Ayres: They rely upon the scheme and whose lives have been changed fundamentally by the scheme. The government supports the scheme. We support it because it improves the lives of people who have a disability, particularly children who have a disability. It improves the lives of families of people who look after those people. It has a demonstrably positive effect in communities. It is often not just families who look after and support people with a disability; it’s communities. We want to see workers in the disability sector paid more, paid fairly and firms engage on an ethical basis in the activities around the scheme. Almost all of them are. We want to see productivity in a real sense—that is, more and better quality services offered to Australians who are participants in the scheme. We have committed to the scheme growing, in cooperation with the state and territory governments, at eight per cent per year. That is more than the increases in inflation. We anticipate—we traversed some of these issues in the committee—that there are other sources of growth beyond just what happens in terms of the broader inflationary impact. So that is an eight per cent commitment to growth of the scheme. It is completely legitimate for government and, indeed, members of this committee to be focused upon value for money questions, compliance questions and constantly improving the focus of the governance of the scheme to deliver better outcomes. You are right to point to some of the compliance challenges that the scheme and the government must deal with. That is very much the focus of the minister. I just doesn’t think it’s fair to denigrate the overall scheme or its value for Australians. What you do is a matter for you. It is certainly the government’s position that this is a scheme that is in the interests of Australians, in the interests of disabled Australians and in the national interest.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for that, Senator Ayres. The NDIS is a scheme that is needed. It’s very badly implemented. I am asking the people at the table what they are doing to fix it, because I believe they can fix it. I deny your assertions that I am against it. I wonder why you need to make assertions like that, because it just detracts from my answering time.

Senator Ayres: You were the one who started with the preamble, Senator Roberts.

Senator ROBERTS: I will ask the question: why is it that many direct care providers remain unpaid while at the same time many rorters and unscrupulous fraudsters are able to rip off the system to the tune of billions of
dollars? What is the core problem?

Mr McNaughton: We agree that what we would like to see—we see it in the majority of cases—is very good support providers providing the necessary disability supports to people who need those supports. That’s what makes this scheme such a very important scheme in the landscape of the country. I will ask Ms McKay in a moment to talk through some of the work that government has invested into the Fraud Fusion Taskforce and the crackdown on fraud. We know that there is—

Senator ROBERTS: Excuse me. Is that one of your big initiatives?

Mr McNaughton: It is a big initiative.

Senator ROBERTS: That is pretty important in the scheme of things?

Mr McNaughton: It is very important. I will hand over to Ms McKay to talk that through. That is around cracking down on those unscrupulous providers who are doing the wrong thing by participants. We want to
eradicate that from the scheme because we want to make sure that every dollar is going to a person with disability who requires it. I will hand to Ms McKay, who will talk through those initiatives.

Ms McKay: I want to talk about the Fraud Fusion Taskforce as well as other initiatives that the agency is undertaking to ensure, first and foremost, the safety and continuity of services for participants and to ensure that
the integrity of this scheme remains as strong and robust as we can ensure it can be.

Senator ROBERTS: Excuse me, Ms McKay. The integrity of the scheme would be essential for the other prerequisites—the safety and continuity of services—right?

Ms McKay: Absolutely.

Senator ROBERTS: I’m with you.

Ms McKay: I will talk firstly about the Fraud Fusion Taskforce. The Fraud Fusion Taskforce was established in November 2022 with an initial investment of $126.3 million over four years. An additional investment was made for Services Australia of $26.5 million, which brings the total investment to $152.8 million. The Fraud Fusion Taskforce is co-led by the NDIA and Services Australia. It has 19 other members, which are other government bodies. The Fraud Fusion Taskforce is focused on—

Senator ROBERTS: Excuse me. Does it have any law enforcement agencies as member?

Mr McNaughton: The Australian Federal Police are on it.

Ms McKay: I apologise. I am using the captions. Sometimes I am a bit delayed in my response or understanding of your questions. As Scott mentioned, enforcement agencies are part of the process. There are 95
active fraud operations being led. We’ve got over 500 active investigations currently underway with many cases there. That is one tranche of what the agency is doing. It is working across government to ensure that fraud and organised crime are dealt with in an absolute way that shows no tolerance for those behaviours within the scheme. The second tranche of initiatives that we’re doing is uplifting our system capability through a crackdown on a fraud systems uplift approach. The government has invested $83.9 million for the 2024 calendar year to focus on that work. That work absolutely complements the work of the Fraud Fusion Taskforce by ensuring that we can implement new systems that have the uplift capability we need to make sure that it’s easier to get things right and harder to get things wrong. The types of programs that we have been investing in include identity proofing systems; improving systems that check payment claims; making sure that our new IT systems are connected; and making sure that we have a fraud case management approach. I have a whole program of work that is being undertaken as part of that process. We’re also ensuring that the work we do in relation to this is co-designed and discussed with participants as well as with the sector more generally. This is so that, as we make changes to our systems, participants can have confidence that they’ve been consulted on the changes and they are going to have their safety first and foremost and continuity of care always as principles that will govern those changes that we introduce.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you very much. That was clear and succinct.

Ms Glanville: We are also a member of the taskforce. I can perhaps give you a sense of the regulatory actions that connect to that. That would be quite useful. I will quote from our 2023-24 end of financial year figures. This is in the context of there being terrific providers out there doing great work with people with disabilities and supporting them to live the ordinary lives that they require, as recognised in the Every Australian Counts
campaign from all those years ago.

Senator ROBERTS: That’s important. The good ones at the moment are being drowned out by a focus on the unscrupulous ones.

Ms Glanville: There are many good providers out there, so I agree with you that it is important to recognise them. I will give you some quick figures. The regulatory chill is that we have banning orders. There were 142 in the 2023-24 financial year. Civil penalties—

Senator ROBERTS: What is a banning order?

Ms Glanville: When someone is not allowed to provide services into the future. Civil penalties proceedings might be before courts. There were three of them. There are, of course, some other matters that I can’t talk about here but which are before the Federal Court in terms of practices and behaviours that we would find unacceptable.

Senator ROBERTS: Criminal activities?

Ms Glanville: Sometimes these can involve criminal activities, yes. There were 52 compliance notices. That is where a provider is asked to comply in certain ways with certain code of conduct or other matters. That is a significant power we have. Of course, education remains very important. We did over 21,985 sessions that relate to that. There were five enforceable undertakings and 147 infringement notices. The number refused
registration—I think this goes to the core of some of the issues are you raising—is 11,952.

Senator ROBERTS: So 11,952 registrations were refused?

Ms Glanville: Where there was a refusal of registration, yes.

Senator ROBERTS: Is that for providers or agencies?

Ms Glanville: That’s for providers, people providing services.

Senator ROBERTS: What about agencies? How many of them have been prohibited?

Ms Glanville: I can’t make that distinction, but I’m happy to take that away and see if we can get any information for you on that.

Senator ROBERTS: If you could, please.

Ms Glanville: Revocation of registration was 192. Suspended registration was 12. Warning letters was 3½ thousand-odd. That gives you a sense of about 38,000 different types of enforcement actions that we took and the outcomes of those. This is in the service of trying to lift the quality overall to ensure that people with disability have the opportunity to make good choices in terms of who provides services to them. It also ensures that we have a strong regulator where the sorts of concerns that you are raising in some of your questioning can be addressed very thoroughly by the commission and others.

Senator ROBERTS: I would like to know on notice the agencies that you have taken on. I understand that there are some very good providers and there are some unscrupulous providers. There are some very good
agencies and there are some unscrupulous agencies. The agencies that are unscrupulous magnify the problem because there is not just one or two people in those agencies. There are sometimes many people in those agencies.

Ms Glanville: We’ll certainly take that on notice and come back to you.

Senator ROBERTS: I will cede the call there because I’ve had my 10 minutes. I would like to come back and drill into some of the details.

CHAIR: I will put you on the list, Senator Roberts, for a crossbench rotation.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you

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Oakey Meat Works Pollution

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The Oakey meat works is 100% owned by NH Foods of Japan. Between mid-March and mid-June 2022, NH Foods released 175 megalitres (175,000,000 litres) of heavily contaminated abattoir runoff into Oakey Creek, which flows into the Condamine Balonne river system, part of the Murray Darling Basin. From there, the contamination makes its way down the Darling and Murray Rivers into the Lower Lakes in South Australia.

The contamination was horrific: 460,000 MPN/100ml (milliliters) for E.coli, 151 mg/litre of ammonia nitrate, and phosphorus at 29 mg/litre.

The Queensland Government investigated and agreed with the facts but only fined the meat works $13,000 when they could have been fined $1.3 million per day. This might have something to do with the close links between the meat works and the union movement. I pointed out that charging a foreign meat works $13,000 to dispose of such a large amount of heavily polluted water under cover of heavy rain is a scandal. Why would Oakey meat works or any other company bother to dispose of waste properly when they can just dump it into the Murray Darling system and pay a token fine for doing so?

I first asked the Inspector-General of Water Compliance if he would investigate, and he refused. This is despite the Act, which established his agency, specifically outlines his duties to include intervening when a State Government fails to do their job, which Queensland has in this case. After that hand-washing, I asked the Murray Darling Basin Authority if they were concerned about such a large source of toxic pollution, which may have led to the famous blue-green algae outbreak and fish kill near Menindee. The answer was more deflection, with the matter ending at the Queensland Government’s door.

If this was a farmer, they would be all over it, and indeed are all over farm runoff. But abattoir runoff? Apparently not.

I am sick of the rules not applying equally. I hope raising this matter will at least focus the attention of relevant authorities on the Oakey meat works to ensure this never happens again.

Transcript | Session 1

Senator ROBERTS: I’ll ask the questions that I started asking of the inspector-general; I was advised that they were more appropriate for the Murray-Darling Basin. The Oakey meatworks is 100 per cent owned by NH
Foods of Japan. Between mid-March and mid-June 2022, NH Foods released 175 megalitres of highly contaminated abattoir run-off into Oakey Creek, which flows into the Condamine-Balonne system. The water
released was 175 megalitres—massive. It was a large body of water, which was contaminated with ammonium nitrate at 102 milligrams per litre and E. coli at 14,000 MPN per 100 millilitres. I am sure you know that 100 MPN per 100 millilitres is considered a high-risk concentration. The source of the water was a holding pond, which was contaminated at the level of 460,000 MPN per 100 millilitres—an astronomical number for E. coli—151 milligrams per litre of ammonium nitrate and phosphorus at 29 milligrams per litre. The volume and the high concentration toxicity taken together are likely to cause a particularly large toxic blue-green algae outbreak, which was observed at the site prior to the release. The release occurred during heavy rain, which is why the concentration in the waterway was lower than in the dam. The timing of the release coincides with a blue-green algae outbreak in the Darling in July of 2023. My question is: are you aware of these facts already?

Mr McConville: Environmental regulation in Queensland is the responsibility of its Department of Environment, Science and Innovation. The MDBA doesn’t have any compliance or regulatory functions with
regard to the issues that you’ve raised. In respect of the issues regarding water quality in the Darling, yes, Dr Banks and I can talk in more detail to some of those issues, but not in relation to this.

Senator ROBERTS: So did the Queensland EPA investigate.

Mr McConville: I am not in a position to comment.

Senator ROBERTS: That wasn’t a question, Mr McConville. The Queensland EPA investigated, concluded that a breach of Queensland environmental laws had occurred and a fine was issued. The maximum fine for this offence is $1.3 million per offence. The Queensland government chose to fine the facility $13,500: one per cent of the maximum. Local residents tell me that the abattoir, which has a long history of industrial accidents and fines, has a habit of building up pollutants in their holding dam and then releasing it under cover of heavy rain. Has either the Murray-Darling Basin Authority or the department investigated the Oakey meat processing plant sending pollutants into the Murray-Darling Basin?

Mr McConville: Once again, I state that the MDBA doesn’t have any compliance, regulatory or investigative responsibilities. Those responsibilities would sit with regulatory agencies in Queensland.

Senator ROBERTS: Am I to interpret, Mr McConville, that you’re saying, ‘Nothing to look at here’, or do you raise it and deal with it in another way? Did you know about it and what’s your response?

Mr McConville: No, Senator, I didn’t know about this specific instance. We continue to engage on an ongoing basis with Queensland, and indeed all other states, on issues of water quality. We have been very engaged with WaterNSW in relation to the issues of water quality in the Lower Darling in particular. But no, I have not been engaged on that issue in Queensland.

Senator ROBERTS: What’s your level of engagement with the Queensland government and the Queensland EPA in particular?

Mr McConville: We don’t engage directly. There isn’t an EPA in Queensland; it’s the Department of Environment, Science & Innovation. We don’t engage directly with them. We do engage on a very continuous and
ongoing basis with the water agencies in Queensland as we look at all of the issues that relate to their responsibilities in implementing the basin plan.

Senator ROBERTS: Given your concern about the water quality of the Darling River, will you be engaging with the Queensland water authorities now on this specifically?

Mr McConville: I am happy to have a conversation with them. I would reinforce that we don’t have any compliance or regulatory functions in relation to environmental incident management in Queensland.

Senator ROBERTS: Will you raise this with them as a concern?

Mr McConville: I am happy to have a conversation with them, as I do on an ongoing basis.

Senator ROBERTS: Could you let us know when you do?

Mr McConville: Certainly, Senator.

Senator ROBERTS: Minister, does $13,500 seem a fair fine for a foreign multinational food company? This is 175 megalitres of heavily contaminated water disposed of into the connected basin for just $13,500. That’s a very cheap way of getting rid of pollution. That’s a bargain! Why do anything legally when you can just dump dangerous levels of pollution into the basin? Any thoughts on that?

Senator McAllister: The officials have explained to you that the Murray-Darling Basin arrangements respect the role of the states and territories in managing certain functions in terms of environmental management, but require coordination on other questions. The official has said to you that this is a question for the Queensland government. The fines that they levy and the approach they take to compliance and enforcement really is a job for which they are responsible. We don’t seek to take on every responsibility that exists for a state and territory. We respect the role of states and territories in managing their own affairs.

Senator ROBERTS: That’s pleasing to hear, in a way, because as you know I believe in competitive federalism and as much power to the states as possible and limited central power. But who is concerned? It doesn’t seem like anyone is concerned about the health of the Darling River?

Senator McAllister: Everybody is interested in the health of the Murray-Darling Basin.

Senator ROBERTS: Queensland is not.

Senator McAllister: Senator, I invite you to take that up with the Queensland government.

Senator ROBERTS: Who’s interested in the health of the Darling River?

Senator McAllister: You can ask any number of the officials here, who spent a lot of time thinking about the health of the Darling, about the steps that are in place under the Murray-Darling Basin Plan to improve the health of the river systems within the basin.

Senator ROBERTS: I accept that what is done is done. The purpose of sharing this is to bring it to your attention and hopefully to procure an undertaking that the Murray-Darling Basin Authority or the Department of
the Environment, Science and Innovation will monitor run-off from the Oakey meatworks in a heavy-rain event to prevent them from doing this again. Is that something that is reasonable?

Mr McConville: We don’t have a compliance or regulatory function, so it’s not our task to monitor run-off from any particular site or facility. That would sit with the Queensland state department. As I have said, I am very happy to engage with Queensland and to make inquiries in that regard; again, that function sits with the state environmental regulatory agencies.

Senator ROBERTS: Will your inquiries include any request or suggestion that they actively monitor water releases from this abattoir?

Mr McConville: Again, that is for the state authorities to determine how they would do that.

Senator ROBERTS: But would you hint to it or request it? They can tell you to ‘go to hell’.

Mr McConville: I need to be very mindful of where my remit exists and where it doesn’t. I am very happy to engage with departmental officials in Queensland in relation to water quality generally. The specific response, again, would sit with the state departments.

Senator ROBERTS: There are two points that I would like to raise. The second is the most important. The first one I just mention for completeness. The Queensland branch of the Australasian Meat Industry Employees
Union has made multiple donations to the Queensland ALP, totalling $66,000 across the period the abattoir has been a really bad corporate citizen. Maybe it’s something to do with the uncertain future of that meatworks and a factor in imposing such a small fine. The second point is directly to a federal responsibility. The uncertainty of that meatworks has been increased dramatically by the PFAS contamination in the groundwater off the Oakey air base. What is the government doing to manage and treat that PFAS contamination and prevent it growing?

Senator McAllister: There are a couple of things. First, as you have had explained to you on a number of occasions, we are not responsible for the Queensland government. We can’t in this forum answer questions about the way in which the Queensland government executes its responsibilities. Clearly, this is the Australian Senate. Senators are here for the purpose of interrogating the expenditure of public money in this portfolio. We are simply not in a position to answer questions about the Queensland administrative arrangements. Secondly, you asked me about the adequacy of penalties. I will say that a bill is in the Senate now to increase penalties from around $15 million in the Commonwealth’s environmental legislation to $780 million. That is legislation that you may vote for. I understand it is not your intention to do so, but we are trying to increase penalties in relation to offences that are relevant for the Australian government. Thirdly, in relation to PFAS, I can tell you generally that Australian government agencies, particularly in Defence, are very engaged with this where there is a relationship with the use of PFAS in defence sites. The officials at this table aren’t involved in those processes, but they may be able to assist you about any particular Murray-Darling Basin related matters. You may have needed to ask that in another committee.

CHAIR: We will now break for morning tea.

Transcript | Session 2

Senator ROBERTS: I will cover a number of issues. In the last 12 months, how many overseas trips have been taken by Murray-Darling Basin Authority members?

Mr McConville: In the last 12 months—I may have to double-check—two trips, one by me. I travelled to France for the International Network of Basin Organisations triennial general assembly. Tim Goodes, Executive
Director, Basin Plan, recently travelled to the United States to attend the Colorado River Basin and a series of other meetings and attended a course at Harvard University. I believe they are the only two.

Senator ROBERTS: Colorado River Basin would be pretty significant.

Mr McConville: Indeed.

Senator ROBERTS: Could you please provide details, including cost.

Mr McConville: I will have to take that on notice. I am happy to.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. My staff would like to compliment your new system view page—very well done.

Mr McConville: Thank you.

Senator ROBERTS: They think it is excellent. When will you be likely to add a page on the measurement of to-sea flow from the barrages?

Mr McConville: I don’t know. Again, I am happy to take that on notice, if I may.

Senator ROBERTS: Sure. South Australia’s water data export for water over the barrages, which is, I believe, the sea flow, totalled around 2,200 gigalitres to the sea in the last 12 months. Does that seem about right?

Mr McConville: Again, I couldn’t speculate. I am happy to come back to you on data flows and information.

Senator ROBERTS: This is your data, apparently. It is laid out for many pages and totals 2,201 gigalitres, which is a lot of water.

Mr McConville: Yes.

Senator ROBERTS: From your new and excellent system view page, the value of the flow to South Australia over the last 12 months is 3,707 gigalitres. That’s from your data total there. Is that correct?

Mr McConville: I wouldn’t know, off the top of my head. I am happy to confirm that.

Senator ROBERTS: What is the figure for South Australian flow to guarantee the health of the Murray River through South Australia, and how much must the to-sea flow be to carry out the salt and pollutants to keep the river healthy?

Mr McConville: I might ask Jacqui Hickey, our director of river operations, to come up and address those questions in relation to the flows and the barrages.

Ms Hickey: Can you repeat your question for me.

Senator ROBERTS: What is the figure for the South Australian flow to guarantee the health of the Murray River through South Australia? How much must the to-sea flow be to carry out the salt and pollutants to keep the river healthy? We are after flow into South Australia and flow into the sea.

Ms Hickey: Chapter 8 of the Basin Plan sets out what we think the flow should be over the barrages, if we can achieve that. On a three-year rolling average, for 95 per cent of the time, that number is about 2,000 gigalitres over the barrages, with a minimum—

Senator ROBERTS: It is 2,200 gigalitres.

Ms Hickey: Per year, on a three-year rolling average, for 95 per cent of the time over the long term. That is set out in the Basin Plan.

Senator ROBERTS: Where is it?

Ms Hickey: That is in chapter 8, section 8.13. Regarding your questions on flows recently to South Australia, in the 2023-24 water year, the total flow across the SA border was 7,780 gigalitres. Of that, 5,470 gigalitres went across the barrages.

Senator ROBERTS: That’s over what period?

Ms Hickey: The 2023-24 water year.

Senator ROBERTS: One year of floods.

Ms Hickey: Coming off some wet periods.

Senator ROBERTS: My understanding is that, during the last drought, in the debate about the water flows around 2019, the figure as to how much is needed to go out to sea to discharge pollutants and salt was about 800 to 1,000 gigalitres. Is that roughly correct?

Ms Hickey: I’d have to take that one on notice. I don’t have with me the long-term figures for barrage releases.

Senator ROBERTS: The target for over-the-border flows is about 4,000 gigalitres. That’s the top end. Is that about right?

Ms Hickey: It varies from year to year. The flow to South Australia, as you know, is made up of the SA entitlement flow, which is the consumptive entitlement and the dilution and loss. That’s what we have to provide
each—

Senator ROBERTS: That is domestic and irrigators?

Ms Hickey: It is. It is South Australia’s state entitlement. That includes some water for local environmental uses. We also provide environmental water that has been delivered through the system. When additional dilution flows are triggered, that is also provided, if that is not already met through unregulated flows. Any trade to or from South Australia provides a net adjustment of the total flow across the SA border.

Senator ROBERTS: The message I get from you is that it’s not simple. It’s complex. There are other factors. I am trying to simplify it. I don’t want to mislead anyone; I don’t want to put words in your mouth. My
understanding is that the annual inflow to the Murray-Darling Basin is about 12,000 gigalitres and South Australia gets about a third of that, which is about 4,000 gigalitres.

Ms Hickey: I can’t answer those numbers. I don’t have the analysis in front of me.

Senator ROBERTS: South Australia is only one-quarter of the basin. It seems to me that South Australia is getting plenty of water.

CHAIR: Said the Queenslander!

Senator ROBERTS: My understanding is that, during the last drought, as I said, around 2019, the debate was about a need in South Australia to discharge to the sea 800 to 1,000 gigalitres. We’re sending down 2,201
gigalitres to the sea. Why are we wasting water—and now the government wants another 450 gigalitres—when you have more than enough, Minister?

Senator McAllister: I think your question misunderstands quite a lot about the way the water arrangements work in the basin. The goal of the Murray-Darling Basin Plan is to generate a healthy working river and to
support farming activities, communities and the natural environment within the basin area. Your approach looks at a single metric: the amount of water flowing over the barrages. It makes an assumption that water flowing at the end of the system represents a waste. That’s not the way that the scientists tell us we should manage water in the system. We’ve got broader goals. We want to see healthy rivers right across the basin, including in the north of the basin. We want to make sure that the systems aren’t overallocated, so that irrigators and water users have certainty about what they can use each year. We also want to make sure that we’re not extracting more water out of those systems than can be sustained in the long term from an environmental perspective. The truth is that communities and agriculturalists and environmentalists all need us to return to some kind of sustainable take out of that system.

Senator ROBERTS: Just looking at the figures that I shared with Mr McConville, from the Murray-Darling Basin Authority’s own data, the flow into South Australia in the last 12 months was 3,777 gigalitres. The flow out from South Australia into the sea was 2,200 gigalitres. That is about 1,600 gigalitres consumed in South Australia. Town water and irrigation are about 400. That leaves about 1,200 for river seepage and evaporation of the lower lakes. That seems like a lot.

Ms Hickey: Maybe we can issue you with some updated numbers. What happens is that, when we get the information from our flow recording sites across the basin, every now and again we do hydrometric updates and
we do find that there are some adjustments to those figures. You are talking about the 2023-24 water year?

Senator ROBERTS: I am talking about the last 12 months.

Ms Hickey: I have only got it per water year. There is the flow into South Australia, minus the amount that’s used for irrigation purposes, aligned with South Australia’s allocation. Then there are additional inflows that come into the lower part of the River Murray from other small tributary inflows as well.

Senator ROBERTS: Is that from the south-east?

Ms Hickey: No. That is from the Mount Lofty Ranges and other local catchment areas. Obviously, when the lakes are higher, there is more evaporation loss, but wind and temperature do play a big factor in evaporation
losses at the lakes.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. That is the end of my questions.

/4 Comments/by

Australia Must Boost Gold Reserves Amid BRICS Gold Rush

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It’s no secret that BRICS countries are buying gold at unprecedented rates, which is the main reason gold is appreciating in value so quickly. Speculation suggests BRICS is planning a gold-backed exchange currency to facilitate further movement away from the US dollar as the default currency for settling international trade.

I have asked the Reserve Bank about this on several occasions, highlighting Australia’s puny gold reserves as compared to Russia (a similarly sized economy) and China. Once again, the answer I received indicates the Reserve Bank has its head in the sand on this issue.

Our economy is so closely tied to the United States that a new exchange currency will “free up” a huge amount of US dollars, which will have significant consequences not just for the USA but for major trading partners such as Australia.

Australia must respond to the threat of a new exchange currency by expanding our gold holdings as a hedge against an upheaval in the currency market. One Nation will expand our gold reserves and reduce our exposure to the US dollar—both currency and treasuries.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Okay. Let’s move on to gold. Your most recent balance sheet shows gold and foreign exchange assets at $105 billion. How much of that is in gold, and how much has our gold holding changed? Could you provide the tonnes of gold and the value?

Dr Kent: Our long-term gold holdings are still 80 tonnes, which is around 6,430 bars.

Senator ROBERTS: That’s 6,430 bars.

Dr Kent: Yes. That has not changed since 1997. The value as at September was around $9.7 billion.

Senator ROBERTS: Where is that gold physically located, and has the holding been audited since the 2022 audit?

Dr Kent: I don’t believe it has. Another audit is coming due; I would have to take on notice exactly when. It is almost all held in the facility at the Bank of England.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you very much; I like your precise answers. Saudi Arabia has just been detected as buying 160 tonnes of gold, and the People’s Bank of China bought 1,600 tonnes of gold over the last three
years. China now holds more than 2,000 tonnes. Russia now holds 2,300 tonnes. This is a large element of the demand inflation in the gold price. Are you concerned that BRICS is up to something that needs gold? Should we be increasing our holdings as a precaution?

Dr Kent: I have no intimate knowledge as to why they are purchasing that gold. I don’t think it has implications for us.

Senator ROBERTS: So you’re not concerned?

Dr Kent: No.

Senator ROBERTS: BRICS have the capacity to pull the rug out from underneath the dollar, and, in my opinion, Australia should mind that risk. What are our current holding of US Treasury notes and currency?

Dr Kent: I will have to get back to you with the precise figure, but it’s an important part of our foreign exchange reserves.

/3 Comments/by

Urgent Need for Fire Safety Inspector Training in Australia

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I was contacted by a constituent who is a qualified fire inspector, who obtained his qualification from Queensland TAFE many years ago. He informed me that no TAFE in Australia currently offers a course that would qualify a person to become a building fire safety inspector. This seems like a significant problem in a country that will need one million new homes to house those who are here now.

I asked the Australian Skills Quality Authority, the closest agency to the topic, about this matter. It was taken on notice.  I look forward to a prompt answer.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you all for appearing tonight. These very brief questions are from a constituent. Can you tell me what course a person looking to qualify as a fire systems inspector would do? 

Ms Rice: I’d have to check the details for that particular occupation as to what would be the required qualification. 

Senator ROBERTS: I don’t expect you to know everything! Take that on notice, please. 

Ms Rice: Certainly. 

Senator ROBERTS: I would also like you to identify which locations in Australia are teaching those courses currently. 

Ms Rice: Again, I’m happy to take that on notice. 

Senator ROBERTS: Fire safety is an essential inspection, Minister, for every new building constructed—and we need a lot of new buildings with massive immigration. Ms Rice, are you aware of whether your agency or any other is doing the planning for how many fire inspectors we will need in the near future and where those will be trained? 

Senator Watt: I’m not. Ordinarily, that kind of work around projecting future workforce needs would probably be a Jobs and Skills Australia role. I think they were to give evidence but were released, but we could take that on notice. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you all for appearing tonight. These very brief questions are from a constituent. Can you tell me what course a person looking to qualify as a fire systems inspector would do? 

Ms Rice: I’d have to check the details for that particular occupation as to what would be the required qualification. 

Senator ROBERTS: I don’t expect you to know everything! Take that on notice, please. 

Ms Rice: Certainly. 

Senator ROBERTS: I would also like you to identify which locations in Australia are teaching those courses currently. 

Ms Rice: Again, I’m happy to take that on notice. 

Senator ROBERTS: Fire safety is an essential inspection, Minister, for every new building constructed—and we need a lot of new buildings with massive immigration. Ms Rice, are you aware of whether your agency or any other is doing the planning for how many fire inspectors we will need in the near future and where those will be trained? 

Senator Watt: I’m not. Ordinarily, that kind of work around projecting future workforce needs would probably be a Jobs and Skills Australia role. I think they were to give evidence but were released, but we could take that on notice. 

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TGA Defends COVID-19 Vaccine Safety Amid Spike Protein Concerns

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During my session with the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) at Senate Estimates in November, I questioned them about a number of concerns.

Does the TGA agree that spike protein is pathogenic in COVID-19 vaccines? Professor Langham clarified that the spike protein is not pathogenic and is designed to trigger an antigen recognition and antibody response. 

Has the TGA observed or seen reports of any adverse events related to the spike protein? Professor Langham responded that no such events have been observed, as the spike protein is quickly degraded by the body once it’s introduced s part of the mRNA vaccine.

What analysis did the TGA conduct regarding the spike protein’s suitability before vaccine approval? Professor Lawler agreed to provide detailed information on notice.

It has been demonstrated that spike proteins exert an inhibitory effect on the function of the angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), leading to dysregulation of the renin-angiotensin system. Is the TGA aware of this effect of spike proteins on ACE2 and on the renin-angiotensin system?  Professor Langham explained that while the spike protein attaches to receptors, it does not cause harm on its own. 

Is ‘long COVID’ the result of spike protein in the body coming from the Wuhan and alpha versions of COVID itself or is it from the vaccine products containing spike proteins, which are injected repeatedly in Australians?  Professor Lawler responded that there is no accepted evidence to confirm such a link.

Has the TGA received any applications for treatments to remove spike proteins from the body and has the TGA engaged with research institutions on this matter? Professor Lawler clarified that the TGA has not received such applications, does not commission research, and focuses on regulating therapeutic goods.

The TGA emphasised that the overall risk-benefit profile of COVID-19 vaccines remains positive.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. Does the TGA agree that spike protein is pathogenic?

Prof. Langham: Thank you for your question. The spike protein is not pathogenic. It does not contain any of the other parts of the COVID-19 vaccine that brings about a pathogenetic state. The spike protein is really there to encourage an antigen recognition and an antibody response by the body.

Senator ROBERTS: Okay. I’ll move on. Has the TGA observed or seen reports of any adverse effects of COVID vaccination that may be associated with the likely effects of spike protein?

Prof. Langham: As I said, the spike protein is not pathogenic. We’ve not seen any adverse events related to the spike protein, because—and we’ve discussed this previously—the spike protein is rapidly degraded by the
body once it’s introduced as part of the mRNA vaccine.

Senator ROBERTS: Really? Okay. What analysis did the TGA conduct regarding the suitability of spike protein in the COVID vaccines prior to approval? Could you please provide me with that material on notice.

Prof. Lawler: I’m taking that question to be: what did the TGA know about spike proteins prior to approving the COVID vaccines? Is that a fair—

Senator ROBERTS: I’d like to know what analysis you did regarding the suitability of spike protein in the COVID vaccines prior to approval, and I’d like that material on notice.

Prof. Lawler: I’m happy to respond to that question on notice. We have responded to similar questions previously.

Senator ROBERTS: Can you tell me about the analysis?

Prof. Lawler: As I said, I’m happy to take that question on notice.

Senator ROBERTS: Do you know about the analysis now? The question on notice is only if you don’t know something now.

CHAIR: Senator, the official is well entitled to take a question on notice. It’s not about not answering the question; it’s about taking an answer on notice.

Senator ROBERTS: Well, as I understand it, the guides to the witnesses include that if they want to take something on notice it’s only because they don’t know the answer now.

CHAIR: Yes, or they need to qualify or check the information or they don’t have the extent of the information.

Senator Gallagher: They don’t have the information with them to provide you a comprehensive answer, which is not unreasonable.

Senator ROBERTS: Okay. Have you received any reports, data or discussion from your pharmacovigilance system highlighting concerns about spike proteins following the introduction of the COVID vaccines? If so, could you please provide that information?

Prof. Langham: Again, I’m at a loss to understand the specifics of your question as to how our pharmacovigilance would relate to the specific aspect of the vaccine which is the spike protein. I think we can
answer very clearly what our pharmacovigilance results have been for the vaccine itself. But as to the specific aspects of the spike protein, the reason the mRNA vaccines include the spike protein as the antigenic stimulus results from many years of research that had been undertaken in the US by the National Centre for Vaccines to develop mRNA vaccines.

Prof. Lawler: And I’d just add to Professor Langham’s answer that the purpose of our pharmacovigilance and the way in which it monitors for and identifies to enable us to respond to emerging safety signals and trends is that it’s based on adverse events.

Senator ROBERTS: That’s all it’s based on?

Prof. Lawler: These are clinical events. So, there’s an expectation—indeed, an encouragement—that adverse events are reported, and these are reported on the basis of clinical nature. We also, as I mentioned previously, work with international partners on a network of pharmacovigilance activities that Dr Larter might like to speak to.

Dr Larter: We continue to engage with our international regulatory counterparts to look at not only spontaneous adverse event reporting but also linked data, and many of the rich datasets that are available globally,
to inform our safety monitoring. These processes enable us to identify emerging safety concerns well before we understand how they might be occurring, before the mechanisms of action are identified. That’s a strength. We don’t need to know exactly how they’re being caused to take regulatory action to ensure that the safety profile is up to date and available for treating health professionals.

Senator ROBERTS: There has been a multitude of papers about potential health impacts from spike protein on the renin-angiotensin system in the human body. It appears to be basic to human health—if not the key system then certainly one of the key systems to health. Is it your testimony today that the COVID vaccines containing spike proteins are still perfectly safe.

Prof. Lawler: We’re aware of the importance of the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system. Professor Langham is a nephrologist. The reality is—I’m happy to come back if I’m wrong, but I don’t know whether we or any other regulator has ever said that a medication is perfectly safe. There are a number of processes that we follow in the assessment and market authorisation of a number of medicines. We have product information that clearly states the risks and potential adverse events—

Senator ROBERTS: Who is that from? Who is the product information from?

Prof. Lawler: The product information is produced—I guess, to the question, I’d like to say that we don’t maintain that the vaccine is perfectly safe. Every time we come here, we discuss with you the adverse events and the recognised and accepted potential adverse events. So, no, it’s not our position that the vaccine is perfectly safe. It is our clear position, and this is the clear scientific consensus, that the risk-benefit of COVID vaccines has been shown to be very safe and, in fact, the risk-benefit is significantly positive.

Senator ROBERTS: Okay; I won’t explore that any further. It has been demonstrated that spike proteins exert an inhibitory effect on the function of the angiotensin-converting enzyme 2, ACE2, leading to dysregulation of the renin-angiotensin system. Is the TGA aware of this effect of spike proteins on ACE2 and on the renin-angiotensin system?

Prof. Langham: It’s well known that the angiotensin receptor is important in how the virus exerts its effects on the body. As to what you are describing with the spike protein itself, on its own, it’s not able to cause any
problems. It connects to the receptor, but there is nothing else there behind the spike protein. It’s the virus itself that does cause problems, and the receptor that that virus attaches to is absolutely the angiotensin receptor.

Senator ROBERTS: Was the potential impact of spike proteins on the ACE2 receptor and the renin-angiotensin system considered as part of the analysis of the vaccines? I’d also like to come back again and ask: on
whose advice do you take the product safety?

Prof. Lawler: There are two questions there.

Senator ROBERTS: Yes, there are.

Prof. Lawler: I’d like to answer them in turn. Which one?

Senator ROBERTS: The first one is: was the potential impact of spike proteins on the ACE2 receptor and the renin-angiotensin system considered as part of the analysis of the vaccines?

Prof. Lawler: The process of the market authorisation and evaluation of medicines, including vaccines, is a comprehensive process that is based upon a significant dossier of information that goes to the safety, quality and efficacy of that particular medicine. In terms of whether that was a specific issue, I’m very happy to have a look at that and come back to you on that.

Senator ROBERTS: On notice—are you taking it on notice?

Prof. Lawler: Yes.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. Recently, German doctor Karla Lehmann, in her peer-reviewed scientific paper published in the journal of the European Society of Medicine commented that spike protein is ‘uniquely
dangerous’ for use in vaccine platforms—and this woman is generally pro-vaccine—because of the effects of spike protein causing ACE2 inhibition, leading to excessive angiotensin 2 and harmful overactivation of AT1R, the angiotensin 2, type 1 receptor. This analysis is supported by other research providing clear evidence of the pathogenic nature of spike protein and its unsuitability for use in vaccine platforms. Is the TGA aware of this review and analysis conducted by Karla Lehmann and her damning conclusions about the dangers of spike protein based vaccines?

Prof. Lawler: I don’t have that article. It would be useful, obviously, to review that. I think it’s also worth noting that a lot of the theoretical conversations around spike protein are mechanistic in nature rather than
supported by phenomenological or observational studies. So there are a lot of inferences drawn between a cellular mechanism and a clinical scenario that is very difficult to distinguish from the disease itself. Professor Langham, is there anything you would like to add?

Prof. Langham: I guess I would just support those comments that, when the vaccine with the spike protein as the antigenic stimulus is trialled in clinical trials, the sorts of physiological derangement of the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system that might be described is not seen. So we do not see activation of the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system with the clinical trials in terms of understanding the specific safety signals that have come from them. It has been quite widely demonstrated that the vaccines themselves are very well tolerated.

CHAIR: Senator, I’m due to rotate.

Senator ROBERTS: I just have two more questions on this thread.

CHAIR: Sure.

Senator ROBERTS: Is ‘long COVID’ the result of spike protein in the body coming from the Wuhan and alpha versions of COVID itself or is it from the vaccine products containing spike proteins, which are injected
repeatedly in Australians?

Prof. Lawler: I don’t believe there’s accepted evidence to confirm that that’s the case.

Senator ROBERTS: Has the TGA received any applications for treatments or protocols to remove spike proteins from the human body? Have you asked the National Health and Medical Research Council to advertise a
grant for this purpose? Are you working with any university around this topic—anything at all—either to cure spike protein damage for long COVID, if it exists, or for vaccine injury?

Prof. Lawler: The answer to the first question is not to my knowledge. The answer to the second question is that it’s not the role of the TGA to commission research from the National Health and Medical Research Council. And the answer to the third question is it is not the role of the TGA to generate knowledge; it is the role of the TGA to regulate therapeutic goods.

Senator ROBERTS: That’s the end of my questions on COVID spike protein. I have two more sets of questions.

CHAIR: Do you mean for the TGA?

Senator ROBERTS: Yes, for the TGA but on other topics

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Developers Locking Up Land

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In the middle of a housing crisis, developers are locking up land, waiting for it to get worse so they can sell it at higher prices.

While cutting immigration is the number one solution to the housing crisis, we also need to look at foreign-owned companies that seem to be waiting for house prices to get even more expensive before they build more.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: A car is the third-biggest investment cost of a person’s life, usually. Housing would be No. 2. Government is far and away the biggest cost during a person’s life. Let’s move on to housing. Are you doing any work in the property market in terms of land development? Some developers are acting like a cartel and keeping land locked away in the middle of a housing crisis, waiting for the demand get even bigger to raise their price. What are you doing in this space?

Ms Cass-Gottlieb: Our exposure will arise in mergers, and we reviewed what was voluntarily notified to us— a merger in terms of the function of masterplanned communities. It was an acquisition that brought together assets; Lendlease was selling some assets which went to Supalai. In relation to the Illawarra area, where we considered there would be too much concentration post the transaction, we required a divestiture in order to retain continuing competition. One exposure we have to this, and an important role we have, is merger control. With the reforms, if passed by the House, we will have much more visibility in relation to the transactions we need to look at. If we were to become aware of cartel conduct or reports of anticompetitive conduct, that would absolutely be within our enforcement remit against anticompetitive conduct. We do not have an overall supervisory function in relation to housing. It arises in relation to maintaining and promoting competition.

CHAIR: The committee advises that it is releasing the Productivity Commission; you go with our thanks.

Senator ROBERTS: Are you aware of any developers withholding land from the market to bump up prices?

Ms Cass-Gottlieb: I don’t believe we are aware of that, no.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you.

/1 Comment/by

Lemon Car Dealers Let Off the Hook

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There’s nothing worse than spending tens of thousands of dollars on a car for it to breakdown after its driven out of the dealership. Unfortunately, lots of Australians are left without any help when this happens.

I asked the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) about what they’re doing to protect Australians who end up in this situation.

The protections in place aren’t good enough. One Nation believes every Australian should be able to get an easy refund if their new car breaks down.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for appearing tonight. I’m pleased to hear you say in your opening statement that the cost of living is important and that competition impacts the cost of living. I’d like to understand a little bit about the motor vehicle industry and your involvement in it. There seems to be some systematic level of ‘lemon’ cars being sold by some manufacturers. If they feel there are no consequences for selling dodgy products, won’t that have a significant impact on competition in the motor vehicle industry?

Ms Cass-Gottlieb: This is an important issue that the ACCC and the state and territory consumer protection regulators are very engaged in. In terms of a range of new vehicles, they are each subject to consumer guarantees so that there is an underpinning of fitness for purpose and that they meet the qualities and specifications on which they’ve been sold. The ACCC is seeking, and the government has announced, reforms to the law such that if there are contraventions of a guarantee, including on a motor vehicle, the ACCC can take action not solely to require giving a consumer the remedy, which currently is an action that can be taken—

Senator ROBERTS: ACCC can do that?

Ms Cass-Gottlieb: We can. However, consumers find it very difficult to do so. We find it is a poor way to get actual compliance. The law reform proposes that that will actually be a breach of our act. Where you see repeated indications of this, that we can seek significant penalties as well as consumer remediation—it is reported to us and to state and territory regulators that this is a problem particularly a problem for low-income families and consumers, and it is a problem we seek to take action on with the states and territories. Being able to take action for a serious and systemic breach and to get significant penalties will be the best deterrence.

Senator ROBERTS: In other words, you will strengthen your provisions and add provisions to it.

Ms Cass-Gottlieb: Yes. That is what we are seeking.

Senator ROBERTS: Specifically because you’re aware there are systemic quality issues among some manufacturers.

Ms Cass-Gottlieb: Exactly.

Mr Greiss: We’ve also taken, over the years, quite a number of actions for those types of systemic issues against a number of car manufacturers—Ford and Mazda, just to name two. They are very intensive exercises,
very resource intensive. As the chair just pointed out, the ability to penalise for failure to abide by the consumer guarantees will be a very important reform.

Senator ROBERTS: That was a comprehensive answer; thank you very much.

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Clarifying Chemical Safety Responsibilities with APVMA

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I inquired with the Australian and Veterinary Medicines Authority (APVMA) about the responsibility for the safety of chemicals. I was informed that the APVMA is responsible for the safety of the chemicals they issue permits for, while the States are responsible for their application and that permits are issued based on the safety data on the chemical labels.

I mentioned that there were discrepancies between the data in the safety brochures and the actual permits and was asked to bring that information to their attention.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: I will just continue. What was going to be my second set of questions, I will do now because I will continue on from Senator Canavan. There is label use and there is permit use. Where are the Australian environmental impact studies for both these chemicals regarding widespread applications in South- East Queensland and northern New South Wales? Do they have to do an EIS? 

Mr Hansen: Not an EIS, but they need to meet the environmental thresholds of the statutory criteria in terms of not being harmful to the environment, and that’s an assessment that gets done by APVMA before we issue the permit. 

Senator ROBERTS: So it’s built into the permit? 

Mr Hansen: Yes. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. Who is responsible for that? Is it APVMA? 

Mr Hansen: It’s our responsibility to look at how they are proposing to use it, to put the restrictions on how it should be used to make sure there is no impact to the environment, and then the actual following of those instructions are the responsibility of the state jurisdictions. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you; I’m appreciating your succinct answers. How does the program justify treating areas with no evidence of nests, and how can this be effective if the bait is only active for 24 hours after application? 

Mr Hansen: I’m sorry, that’s something for the program. 

Senator ROBERTS: Do you know why there are discrepancies and contradictions between the latest permit and the safety data sheets regarding safety precautions and application guidelines? I think the permit they are talking about is the permit of the helicopter. 

Mr Hansen: For the aerial applications. 

Senator ROBERTS: Yes. 

Mr Hansen: I heard that question before. I would be interested to see what the variations are—particularly the variations between label and not necessarily the safety data sheet but the label and the permit. If there were differences on that, I’d be interested to see them if you had them. 

Senator ROBERTS: How do people get hold of you? 

Mr Hansen: We’ll find a way. 

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Questions Raised with APVMA on mRNA Vaccine Approvals

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During the recent estimates, I raised several questions regarding the approval and use of mRNA vaccines by the Australian Pesticides and Veterinary Medicines Authority (APVMA). I inquired if the APVMA has authorised any mRNA vaccines. Mr Hansen confirmed that, as of now, no such vaccines have been approved. To ensure thoroughness, Dr Maria Trainer, joined the discussion. She reiterated that no permits or authorisations for mRNA vaccines have been issued, although she stated that there is a general permit for small-scale research (Permit 7250) that might cover such activities.

I questioned whether the New South Wales Department of Primary Industries had acted with APVMA’s consent in importing, testing, and manufacturing an mRNA vaccine for border disease. Dr Trainer clarified that while no specific permits were issued, research could legally occur under the general permit. For clarity, I asked for confirmation on whether the Elizabeth Macarthur Institute holds such a permit and was told that this would be provided to us on notice.

I also addressed concerns about the development of mRNA vaccines for lumpy skin disease and foot-and-mouth disease by the Elizabeth Macarthur Institute. Dr Trainer confirmed that no applications for these vaccines have been received, with Mr Hansen adding that notifications about genetic material for vaccines would likely fall under the jurisdiction of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry (DAFF) and Biosecurity.

Lastly, I raised the issue of foot rot vaccines for sheep, noting that an overseas manufacturer has been approved while an Australian manufacturer has had its approval withdrawn. The overseas vaccine is more expensive and less effective.

I urged the government to commit to a process that ensures the availability of the more effective and affordable Australian-made vaccine for our sheep farmers. Senator Chisholm agreed to take this on notice, and Mr Hansen expressed openness to discussions with the Australian manufacturer for product registration.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Let’s go to my first and most important set of questions. At previous estimates, I have asked if an mRNA vaccine has been approved by your agency, and the response was, ‘No it hasn’t.’ So let me first update, has the APVMA authorised for use any mRNA vaccines? 

Mr Hansen: I understand the answer is still no, but if we are going to go down a line of questions on registration of vaccines, do you want me to get an expert to the table? 

Senator ROBERTS: Yes, if you like. That’ll make it quick. 

Mr Hansen: Excellent. It will be Dr Maria Trainer, but, as far as I’m aware, the answer is still no to that. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. The New South Wales department of primary industries has imported, tested and now manufactured an mRNA vaccine for border disease for New South Wales at the Elizabeth Macarthur Institute. Was that action taken with the consent of the APVMA? 

Dr Trainer: We have not issued any permits or authorised any messenger or any vaccines in Australia anywhere, but we do have a general permit for small-scale research, permit 7250, that potentially would allow for the research being conducted. 

Senator ROBERTS: You don’t know if they are doing research, but they could legally be doing research under a permit? 

Dr Trainer: Yes. 

Senator ROBERTS: Could you take that on notice to provide whether or not the Elizabeth Macarthur Institute has such a permit? 

Mr Hansen: Provided they met the criteria around the small scale, and that’s spelt out under the permit, then we wouldn’t be informed about it. But that’s something we can certainly make an inquiry about. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, and could let us know on notice, please. The Elizabeth Macarthur Institute has also declared they are developing mRNA vaccines for lumpy skin disease and foot-and-mouth disease. Have they applied for or advised you of their handling of this incredibly dangerous genetic material? 

Dr Trainer: At this point in time, we’ve received no applications to register or authorise any messenger RNA vaccines. 

Senator ROBERTS: So you haven’t heard from them? 

Mr Hansen: No, not on that, and I’m not sure that we would be the people that they would notify about bringing in the genetic material for the vaccine. That would be more likely DAF and biosecurity. 

Senator ROBERTS: Okay. I was told when looking into this matter that once we have foot-and-mouth disease and lumpy skin disease material in Australia, we can risk our disease-free status. Is it a true statement that if the Elizabeth Macarthur Institute mishandles this material and one animal is infected with foot and mouth, Australia will lose our disease-free status and the $20 billion a year this brings in? 

Mr Hansen: That’s well and truly in the domain of DAF and biosecurity. 

Mr Lowe: That’s an outcome 2 question. 

Mr Fennessy: I can tell you that some of the work we may have done in the past is done offshore, so not in Australia. We might work with overseas labs. But it doesn’t come into Australia unless there is a biosecurity permit, and there haven’t been any permits allowed for that. 

Senator ROBERTS: Who should we put a question on notice to in regard to that? 

Mr Fennessy: To the department. 

Senator ROBERTS: I’ll get on to something quickly. I’ll put most of it in a letter to the minister on a question on notice. There’s also foot rot for sheep. I’m advised that an overseas manufacturer has been given approval and the previous Australian manufacturer has not had its approval withdrawn. The overseas manufactured vaccine is more expensive for sheep farmers based on the need to more frequently apply it plus the cost. It is less effective, and the locally made, therefore, is more effective, cheaper and of higher value than the foreign made. We also have a declaration from a veterinarian that the local product is far more effective. Minister, is your government prepared to commit to a process—I’ve condensed a lot of things into this, and I will put it in detail in a question on notice—whereby it identifies or quantifies the need for this Australian manufactured vaccine and work on foot rot with the relevant parties to ensure the availability of this vaccine for Australian sheep farmers? 

Senator Chisholm: I’ll take that on notice. 

Mr Hansen: I can provide one more sentence to that, which is that the Australian-made vaccine had an emergency permit because there was no other registered product available in the market. The moment that there became a registered product that had actually come through the front door and had met all the safety criteria, the criteria for an emergency use permit no longer met. We would love the producer of that Australian-made product to come back through the front door for registration as a product, and we’re open to conversations with them on that when they are interested. 

Senator ROBERTS: So would veterinarians and so would farmers. They would love that Australian manufacturer to come back. I must say, Chair, Mr Hansen’s comments have been exactly as you said: precise, succinct and direct. I love your forthcoming and forthrightness. 

Senator Chisholm: You were the problem!  

CHAIR: You got the MR tick of approval, so you’re on a roll here. Thank you very much, Senator Roberts. 

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