Spy agency ASIO not aware of secret Sydney Communist China police station

Reports last year indicated that the China has set up police stations across the world including one in Sydney.

Chinese authorities have said the stations, sometimes called “contact points”, provide services to citizens, such as renewing national identification cards, passports and drivers licences, by using facial recognition technology.

But human rights groups fear overseas police offices could also be used to target dissidents abroad or compel people to return to China where they could face potentially politicised trials.

Despite this potential National Security Breach, our spy agency ASIO doesn’t appear worried and claims to not know anything about it. China must be laughing at our government.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for attending today. Mr Burgess, you said in your opening statement that

Australia is the target of sophisticated and persistent espionage and foreign interference activities from a range of hostile foreign intelligence services. I take it they use a range of means of doing so.

Mr Burgess: Correct.

Senator ROBERTS: Is there a Chinese Communist Party supported contact point in Sydney?

Mr Burgess: I’m not aware of that.

Senator ROBERTS: It’s been reported in the media, I understand.

Mr Burgess: I see many things in the media, but I let the data that we have available to us determine that. I wouldn’t comment on operational matters, but I’m not aware of that in the context of that media reporting.

Senator ROBERTS: So you’re not aware of how long it’s been in operation or what its purpose is?

Mr Burgess: You’re assuming it’s true.

Senator ROBERTS: Yes.

Mr Burgess: We will investigate things that are associated with acts of foreign interference, but I won’t bring colour to them in a public hearing.

Senator ROBERTS: Are there Chinese police officers working out of premises in Sydney?

Mr Burgess: Not that I’m aware of.

Senator ROBERTS: Are their operations of interest to our security agencies?

Mr Burgess: If anyone here were engaged in acts of espionage or foreign interference, that would be of concern and something that we would investigate.

Senator ROBERTS: What about potential breaches of Australian national sovereignty?

Mr Burgess: Again, my agency will investigate anything that’s a threat to security.

Senator ROBERTS: What about Chinese citizens or Chinese people living here in Australia? Should they be concerned? You would protect them, even though they may not be Australian citizens.

Mr Burgess: Anyone in this country is free to be here, assuming they’re on a valid visa, of course, or they’re a citizen or permanent residence, and they’re of no concern to us unless they’re engaged in matters of prejudicial security, in which case we would show an interest in them.

Senator ROBERTS: Individual security as well as national security?

Mr Burgess: Threats to security are what ASIO worries about.

Senator ROBERTS: You’re not aware of people operating from this contact point, so you wouldn’t know whether or not they have any contact with or influence on Australian Chinese residents or Chinese visa holders.

Mr Burgess: Again, I don’t comment on specific operational matters, but I will say this because I’ve said this publicly before: the threat of espionage and foreign interference is a real threat in this country. It is our principal security concern. It comes from a range of countries, and I think it’s unhelpful for me to call out specific countries and in particular when we talk about the vast range of diaspora communities in this country, the members of those communities are not the problem. It’s the foreign government and the foreign intelligence services that will be the focus for me and my agency.

Senator ROBERTS: The Chinese Communist Party itself has belted our country economically. What Australian overview of agencies that operate in this country is there for premises like the supported contact point in Sydney?

Mr Burgess: Again, I don’t comment on specific matters, but if we have a need to investigate things that may be of concern in relation to security, things that could be used as platforms for espionage or foreign interference, I can assure you my agency will be on it and investigate it. And I can assure you we had a very productive year last year, removing espionage and foreign interference problems from this country.

Senator ROBERTS: And you may or may not be able to tell us about those operations, depending upon the circumstances. Is that correct?

Mr Burgess: I wouldn’t talk about them publicly in detail.

Senator ROBERTS: Let’s move on to a series of very short questions on a topic that was underway in last Senate estimates in this room, as I was asking the questions, but it was denied. That was the ISIS brides that were brought back. What are the costs to Australia of bringing these women and children to Australia?

Mr Burgess: The repatriation was not a matter for ASIO. We gave advice on the individuals, but beyond that you’d have to pass that question to others.

Senator ROBERTS: What security measures are to be taken to keep Australian community members safe, because these people have been part of some radical terrorist groups and associated with them?

Mr Burgess: The only comment I’d make there is that ASIO gave security advice to government and, in particular, gave security assessments on all the individuals that returned. That was our job.

Senator ROBERTS: What was that again? You assessed them?

Mr Burgess: We did security assessments on returning individuals, and they returned, and that’s okay.

Senator ROBERTS: Are any of these women currently wives or partners or sisters of terrorists?

Mr Burgess: I won’t go into specific matters.

Senator ROBERTS: Are they genuine refugees?

Mr Burgess: They’re Australian citizens who have returned home.

Senator ROBERTS: Given their recent social circumstances, are any of these people going to need

deradicalization programs?

Mr Burgess: Again, I wouldn’t comment on that publicly, Senator.

Senator ROBERTS: How many of the women have been charged with terrorism related offences?

Mr Burgess: I’m not law enforcement. I’m aware of one charge.

Senator ROBERTS: One.

Mr Burgess: You should speak to the AFP about that.

Senator ROBERTS: Okay.

CHAIR: Senator Roberts, if it assists you, we do have the AFP a little bit later today. They can answer some of those questions for you.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, Chair. Given that most of the husbands and children’s fathers have been

killed by Western soldiers, how traumatised and angry were they when you assessed them?

Mr Burgess: I can’t speak for how they’re feeling.

Senator ROBERTS: No, but you would be aware, surely, of their potential threat?

Mr Burgess: As I said, we did security assessments on all the individuals, and anyone who falls into that

category that believes that violence is the answer would be subject to my agency’s inquiry and investigation.

Senator ROBERTS: Is ongoing support to be provided, and what is it?

Mr Burgess: Again, that’s not a matter for my organisation, other than to say that we will continue to watch anyone that is a threat to security, but I’m not making any comment on these individuals.

Senator ROBERTS: You may not be able to answer this, but I’m guessing you would know the answer

because it would form part of your assessment of terrorism threat. Given the children’s exposure to violence, either as victims or perpetrators, what are the plans for their assimilation, and did you make any comments about what was needed?

Mr Burgess: Again, that question is best put to others in Home Affairs and more broadly.

Senator ROBERTS: Does your agency work in providing a diagnosis and recommendations?

Mr Burgess: On individuals or children?

Senator ROBERTS: On treatment of people to make sure that they don’t violate our standards of behaviour.

Mr Burgess: No, we’re not involved in that. We talk about the security threats people might face, and others worry about what treatments, if any, might be needed.

Senator ROBERTS: So, you do interact. If you can see a potential threat, you pass it on to someone. You

don’t just—

Mr Burgess: We’re part of a broader apparatus that helps counterterrorism in this country, yes.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. I see Mr Pezzullo nodding in agreement. Have the communities where these people are to be housed been fully consulted? I guess that’s for other people to comment.

Mr Burgess: It’s not a question for me, Senator.

Senator ROBERTS: Does your assessment of the threat include any consideration of family members here in Australia whose friends or family members have been killed by ISIS terrorists? Do you consult with the community in which they’re going to be placed?

Mr Burgess: No, we’re not involved in that consultation of where they get placed.

Senator ROBERTS: Will the families be housed together or apart?

Mr Burgess: Again, I can’t answer that question.

Senator ROBERTS: I was thinking more from a security point of view.

Mr Burgess: No, that’s irrelevant. They’re Australian citizens; they’re entitled to be where they want to be

unless there’s some legal condition on them. But I’m not law enforcement, so I’m not part of that.

Senator ROBERTS: So, would you be monitoring them more closely if they’re living close together in an enclave?

Mr Burgess: We will monitor anyone that we deem to be a threat to security.

Senator ROBERTS: So, it wouldn’t be part of your recommendations to keep them separate in this country?

Mr Burgess: No, we were not in that space.

Senator ROBERTS: I just have a final question, Chair, on violence. Does ‘violence’ include destroying

artworks, interrupting everyday Australians and destroying roadworks? I note that left-wing extremism in the 20^th century killed 120 million people. I presume you monitor all types of extremism?

Mr Burgess: We’ll monitor any individuals that have an ideology that thinks violence is the answer.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you very much and thank you for your clear statements opposing violence.

CHAIR: Thanks, Senator Roberts.