Labor Senator Tony Sheldon has attempted to take credit for policy which One Nation is actively pushing through the Parliament while Labor lets their version lapse.
One Nation’s Equal Pay for Equal Work Bill is currently subject to a Parliamentary Inquiry while Labor’s Bill hasn’t even been introduced to the Parliament. Only One Nation is moving forward with legislation to ensure companies using labour hire companies have to pay casual workers a minimum of the same as permanent employees doing the same work.
https://i0.wp.com/www.malcolmrobertsqld.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Equal-Pay-for-Equal-Work.png?fit=593%2C844&ssl=1844593Senator Malcolm Robertshttps://www.malcolmrobertsqld.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/One-Nation-Logo1-300x150.pngSenator Malcolm Roberts2022-09-26 14:13:522022-09-26 14:14:52Labor tries to take credit for One Nation policy
I’ve pursued allegations of fraud, conflicts of interest and risk management about the Coal Long Service Leave Corporation for years. Finally, an independent review has confirmed dozens of governance and fraud risks that have left casual workers without their fair entitlements. It’s a hard-fought win for casual coal miners by One Nation, but there is still much further to go.
Transcript
CHAIR: Senator Sheldon, you are making a statement. We will now go to Senator Roberts.
Senator Cash: Do you feel better, Senator Sheldon, for getting that off your chest because—
Senator SHELDON: I do feel better.
Senator Cash: I’m glad you do because, as I said, I don’t believe, Senator Sheldon, that you as the head of the TWU would indulge in this behaviour. I don’t believe that you, three years later, after a case has been dismissed by the full bench of the Federal Court, would actually stand up and say, and make admissions, the national executive did not approve any of the 20 donations, the subject of the investigation, which contravened the registered organisations act. As I said, that was as recently as December 2021. You’re referring to a statement made on 7 March this year, I would reflect, backed on the admissions made by the AWU in December 2021—a range of admissions concerning contraventions by the AWU. They submitted they made mistakes; they did not comply. So I think, if anyone’s providing an apology, perhaps the AWU should apologise to its members for those contraventions.
Senator SHELDON: And the minor breaches that they were fully aware of throughout the entire five years—
CHAIR: Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Senator Sheldon.
Senator Cash: Senator Sheldon, as you and I know, you need to comply—
Senator SHELDON: The ROC was fully aware that they were minor breaches all the way through, and yet they continued to pursue it.
Senator Cash: You and I are going to have to agree to disagree in relation to the incorrect information you’re providing by way of your questioning.
Senator SHELDON: That’s not incorrect. It was minor breaches, and they were fully aware for the whole five years, and they dragged this out—
Senator SMALL: Who decides whether it’s major or it’s minor? Is that how you plan to act in government?
CHAIR: Order! Order, Senator Small! We would like now to move on to Senator Roberts, who has a series of questions on a different topic.
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you all for appearing today. Most of my questions, I think, will be going to the minister, or certainly to the department. Minister, recently KPMG presented their report into Coal LSL. How are you progressing in relation to implementation of this review and report, and when will it be completed? I understand that some are immediate and some are—
Senator Cash: Understood. I know this is a genuine interest for you, so what I will do is ask Ms Williams to take these questions for you.
Ms T Williams : Senator, you asked how we are progressing with implementation of the recommendations. As you might know, the government has accepted all 20 recommendations of the review. In terms of the 10 recommendations specifically directed at government, the government response to the review identified that the government will take legislative action to clarify eligible employees and ensure that no eligible employee is worse off; ensure fairness for casuals to be treated equitably with permanent employees; address legacy coverage issues to ensure fairness and transparency for employees, employers and employers that may register with the scheme; and strengthen decision-making, review and dispute resolution to enhance accountability and compliance.
The government response to the review really highlights that. It recognises that the reforms are complex and they will require further technical legal advice to ensure that the changes really have the desired impact and benefit for employees and employers under the scheme. The intention is for consultation and action to continue in the spirit of the review, which, as you may be aware, included consultation with producers, employer groups and peak bodies, employers, employees, unions and representatives from modern industry stakeholders. We’ll draw on their expertise and stress test ideas going forward. We’ll need to do that closely and methodically with the stakeholders, including the provision of exposure drafts of legislation. The department is just working through that now, and consultations will begin as soon as practicable.
Senator ROBERTS: I can understand that it’s still being digested. When do you think the plan will be available—or you will have one, even if you’re not sharing it?
Ms T Williams : We’re working through. The review also canvassed that there were a number of existing proposals put to government and suggested that they provided a really good foundation to start to work through some of those ideas. The department is working through that now. In terms of the exact specifics of the consultation, we’ll provide advice to government in due course.
Senator ROBERTS: Reading parts of the report—I haven’t read the whole report—I believe some can be remedied by legislative changes, some can be remedied by the existing proposals and some can be remedied by further consultation. When do you think you will you have the plan together?
Ms T Williams : We’re working on that now. The specifics of that will be a decision for government but, as I said, it will continue in the spirit of the review and be broad-ranging in terms of the consultations. I think the other thing that the review really recognises is the deep industry expertise from employers and employees in this sector and also a real commitment by all the stakeholders that were consulted in the review to get this right. So we’ll provide advice to government on how to take that forward, but the consultations will be very much in that vein.
Mr Hehir : I might just add to that. We’re still some months away. The consultation process will still take a few months to work our way through. Then, following the consultation process, we’ll need to put our advice to government. So we’re still some months away.
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. I will just go to page 126, and I’ll read the main points, the issues in red that are not—
Senator Cash: Just hold on for one moment. Have you got the whole—
Ms T Williams : Yes, I do.
Senator Cash: It will assist if the official is reading it with you.
Senator ROBERTS: It’s a fairly simple question, even though the question will be long. I’ll read out the issues not addressed—the ones in red. On waiver agreements, it says:
The Existing Proposals do not substantively address this issue.
The report says the same thing about conflicts of interest, which it says are significant; allegations of fraud; culture; communications; risk management; adoption of technology; data security and privacy; and validation of data. So none of them are being addressed. For each of them, the report says:
The Existing Proposals do not substantively address this issue.
When do you think you will have something around those? They’re the core issues. That’s not a complaint about the report; the report is fine. But we need to understand when they will be addressed.
Ms T Williams : I will just clarify for you that this section of the report is actually talking about the existing proposals that were put to government before the government realised, or in the process of the government realising, that we needed to have a holistic response to the issues in the sector. So these proposals were actually put by stakeholders, and then the government commissioned an independent review. So the review itself and the recommendations do cover those issues. I think conflicts of interest are covered by recommendation 11.
Senator ROBERTS: What about changes to the board structure and composition?
Ms T Williams : That’s recommendation 13. So they are all covered by the review. This is really talking about how, before the government commissioned the review, those existing proposals had that gap in them. So we commissioned the review, which has now addressed those areas.
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you very much. Now I’d like to move onto the Fair Entitlements Guarantee, the FEG. These are simple questions. You may have to take them on notice. My first question is: have the Fair Entitlements Guarantee and Coal LSL paid any Coal LSL entitlements to One Key employees who no longer work in the coalmining industry and were not CFMMEU members?
Mr Manning : Is this about the One Key workforce case?
Senator ROBERTS : Yes.
Mr Manning : Ms Saunders, who will be coming up from our waiting room downstairs, should be able to answer that for you. Unfortunately, we couldn’t get a room next door today. But we wouldn’t be told whether or not they were union members. We wouldn’t ask that on the application form. So I’m not sure about that, but, when Ms Saunders arrives, she might be able to answer it. You might need to repeat the question, though, because she’s had to come from downstairs.
Ms Saunders : Would you mind repeating the question?
Senator ROBERTS: Sure. It’s from a constituent. Have the Fair Entitlements Guarantee and Coal LSL paid any Coal LSL entitlements to One Key employees who no longer work in the coalmining industry and were not CFMMEU members?
Ms Saunders : Under the Fair Entitlements Guarantee, we pay the five basic employment entitlements: redundancy pay, long-service leave, wages, annual leave and payment in lieu of notice. So our consideration of that doesn’t actually take into account the extent to which they are funded by another organisation, except that, if there is a redundancy trust fund or whatever that will step in to pay a portion of the cost, that is not covered under the Fair Entitlements Guarantee program. I guess, in the sense that any entitlements that were payable under their governing instruments would have been paid under FEG, to the extent that they were eligible for it. For example, with One Key Workforce we paid 346 claimants a total of a $6.8 million in FEG assistance. That covered a range of entitlements.
Senator ROBERTS: What was the total figure?
Ms Saunders : It was $6.8 million.
Mr Hehir : Recognising that covered off a number of different employee entitlements.
Ms Saunders : I don’t have the detail of what made up that in terms of the different entitlements that were covered. I can take that on notice.
Senator ROBERTS: If you could, please. I’d like to understand this issue because it involves some constituents in the Hunter Valley. My next question is: why did the Fair Entitlements Guarantee not pay One Key employees who were non-CFMEU members all entitlements owed under the black coal award, including shift penalties and overtime rates?
Ms Saunders : Okay.
Senator ROBERTS: It’s a complex issue, but it should be able to be boiled down once you have the data. I’m happy to take it on notice.
Senator Cash: You’re happy for us to take it?
Senator ROBERTS: Yes. I’d like to get to the bottom of it.
Senator Cash: Yes, understood.
Senator ROBERTS: Finally, the issues raised in here show—I won’t say neglect, but times are changing across industry and the cracks that are exposed in Coal LSL itself are significant for employees and some employers. They’re very important, but they’re minor relative to the cracks in the Fair Work Act that have been exposed with changes in industry and in employment practices over time. Minister, is the government open to comprehensive review of industrial relations? The reason I ask is that Dave Noonan and heads of the CFMEU and the ETU have said they welcome a comprehensive, fair approach to reviewing and revising industrial relations. The Business Council of Australia has told me that they’re open to it as well and they support it. Large employers have told me the same. Small business is crying out for it, and medium businesses are as well. The industrial relations club which consists of major union bosses, major employers, major industry groups, consultants and lawyers are feeding off this, but the workers are not protected. Even unionised workers are not protected today, and they’re coming to us. The Fair Work Act is so complex that people are trying to detour around it, and that’s adding even more complexity. We need to restore fairness, entitlements and protections to workers—especially fairness to the small businesses. Are you open to comprehensive review of industrial relations?
Senator Cash: I think the government is always prepared to listen to stakeholders—it’s obviously subject to the ability to get anything through the Australian Senate—to make the system a better one, a more productive one, both for employers and for employees. You do raise a good point, though, in relation to the complexity of the system, and I might just ask the official who was talking about the budget announcements that we have made in relation to small businesses in particular being able to better navigate the system to come back to the table, because this is something that you and I had actually spoken about. We have made a budget announcement, so it’s embedded in the budget. But this is, in particular, to assist small businesses to be able to better understand and better navigate the Fair Work Act as it currently stands. If you would just indulge us for two or three minutes, I will get you this information.
Ms Huender : The government’s providing $5.6 million over four years to the Fair Work Commission to establish a dedicated small business unit within the Fair Work Commission to provide tailored support to small businesses to assist them to navigate the system. We’re aware that small businesses are a big part of the Australian economy, with 3½ million businesses employing over 40 per cent of the workforce. However, they do find the system complex. They don’t have the support of HR managers or legal support, so they also find navigating the system costly. So this unit’s designed to provide strategic leadership and to develop improved information resources and case management support for small businesses when they engage with the system. Small businesses, I understand, make up 50 per cent of the Fair Work Commission’s customers, as it were, but they represent 95 per cent of first-time users.
Senator ROBERTS: Minister, that’s necessary, but it just reemphasises my point. It’s a moribund, complicated, inefficient system. And I’m thinking now that, for not only small business but also workers in the Hunter Valley for some of the world’s largest companies, workers in Central Queensland, workers for other large companies, some of the things that are going on with the COVID injection mandates are just despicable. I could tell you stories that would really shock you. We’re not living in a Third-World country, but we’re behaving as if we are, and some workers have no longer got basic protections and basic entitlements.
Senator Cash: I would disagree.
Senator ROBERTS: It’s like we’re living in a Third-World country.
Senator Cash: And I understand, because you genuinely do prosecute this case that every estimates and in relation to, in particular, the size of the Fair Work Act now and its growth over time.
Unidentified speaker: I’m disappointed you didn’t bring it along today!
Senator Cash: As I’ve said, the government is always prepared to work with stakeholders, employers and employees, to take on board the feedback to improve the system. Ultimately, though, changes are to the Fair Work Act itself, and those changes do need to be got through the Australian Senate. I think the perfect example—and you and I had many discussions on this—was the omnibus bill. There were significant parts of that bill that would have given more certainty to certain sectors et cetera, but we just could not get that through the Australian Senate.
With your support, though, we of course rectified the Rossato decision, and that was later, obviously, confirmed in the High Court of Australia. That was an incredibly important decision, as you know, because of the uncertainty that it had given to small businesses that they might end up with what we’d estimated to be I think it was up to a $38 billion or $39 billion liability. We couldn’t even get the support of the Australian Labor Party to actually take that impost off small businesses. You worked with us, and I was very appreciative of that, and we did make that change.
But, in relation to the other parts of the bill, again I’m prepared to work with people. I think a better system, a simpler system and a more productive system—but it has to reflect the needs of both employers and employees—is a good situation to aspire to, but ultimately, as you know, it does come down to the ability to get legislation through the Senate, and we can’t get the Labor Party or the Greens to support that type of productive change.
Senator ROBERTS: We had to work with small businesses to identify issues that they had, and we were pleased that the government resolved some of those issues and put our suggestions into the revised act. But, again, your recounting of the situation, while accurate, reinforces the need for change, because it is just so difficult and such a complex environment, with so many stakeholders hanging on by their fingernails. It’s just out of date and it’s hurting workers.
Senator Cash: As I said, you and I have had many discussions over many years now, and we’ve always worked constructively together in this regard, with a commitment to improving the system for both employees and employers. Ultimately, though, it is difficult to get through the Australian Senate. But what I think it does show is that it’s not therefore about one policy lever. If that policy lever is difficult to actually pull and properly implement because of the nature of the Australian Senate, you do then need to look at other ways that you can deliver for small business.
You and I have long talked about lowering taxes. When you look at, say, the tax rate for small business, under the Australian Labor Party it was 30 per cent; under us it is currently 25 per cent. So, whilst that’s not the industrial relations system as such, it is another way that you can ensure that you’re giving back to small business. I know, throughout COVID-19, even just the ability to change the way you process documents to allow for that—the e-technology certainly assists them. There is the availability of the instant asset write-off and the ability to say to them, ‘If you have that capacity to invest in your business, the government’s going to back you every step of the way.’ If one lever proves difficult, there are other levers that you can then look to utilise to ensure that you are responding in every possible way to that commitment that they are the backbone of the Australian economy, that they deserve to be backed by government, which is what we do. In relation to those changes, the omnibus bill is the perfect example: it was a very reasonable bill that would have provided both employers and employees with a more productive workplace, but we couldn’t get it through the Senate. I was grateful for the support you gave on the Rosato decision.
Senator ROBERTS: You fiddling with the tax system, and I don’t mean that derogatorily.
Senator Cash: I know what you’re saying.
Senator ROBERTS: The tax system makes the Fair Work Commission and Fair Work Act look simple. It doesn’t fix basic safety protections that have gone AWOL in workplace relations. It doesn’t fix the basic employer-employee relationship, which is the primary relationship of any workplace and must be such. We need something that’s comprehensively reformed and brought back to something simple that looks after the primary workplace relationship between employer and employee.
Senator Cash: On safety: I think that, for each one of us, that has to be paramount in the workplace. There are no two ways about that. I know that, when I first came into portfolio and I worked very closely with Mr Hehir on this, we were presented with the outcome of the Boland review. That was something that I looked at. As you know, there are model work health and safety laws, and the Commonwealth works with the states and territories to ensure that we can effect change that is recommended to us. We had the Boland review, we had the recommendations of the Boland review and I worked constructively with our state and territory colleagues regardless of political persuasion. If you’re, the relevant minister I work with you. I was very pleased that, within a few weeks of me formally come portfolio, all relevant ministers across Australia had agreed to accept all the recommendations coming out of the Boland review.
So certainly, when it comes do work health and safety, I have a very good relationship with state and territory ministers, and we will make improvements to the model work health and safety laws together by accepting all of the Boland review’s recommendations.
Senator ROBERTS: Notwithstanding what you just said, I have enjoyed working with Mr Hehir. I have found him easy to deal with and open to deal with.
Senator Cash: Thank you for that feedback.
Senator ROBERTS: But there are people being severely injured, not even reporting and then being threatened if they dare raise safety issues in this country, and that’s not good enough. I’m happy to leave it there, but it is an issue that’s really important, and we will be pushing it.
Companies have been using labour hire contracts to cut wages and benefits for workers. Our One Nation ‘Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill 2022’ will put an end to this unfair abuse.
Transcript
In the last Senate week I introduced my bill to make sure workers employed under labour hire contracts are paid the same rate of pay as workers who are employed directly in certain awards, including the black coal Mining Industry Award and the Aircraft cabin crew award. You know, breadwinner jobs used to be able to provide for a family on one wage and still buy a home, a car and have holidays.
Labour hire contracts are one of the devices that large corporations are now using to drive down wages in industries that have traditionally provided breadwinner jobs. My bill, this bill, will help to bring a better life for Australian workers. Coal mining is in my blood. I started work as a coalface minor for three years underground, including in the Hunter, before progressing to mine management.
The exploitation I have seen lately in the coal mining industry is an absolute disgrace. This bill is the product of work I’ve been doing for years with Hunter Valley coal miners and Queensland coal miners.
One Nation was instrumental in achieving positive change to the Fair Work Act in 2021, including protections for casual workers and casual conversion rights for workers: casual to permanent, improvements to work health and safety incident reporting, proper payment of workers compensation, proper payment of accident pay, proper leave and freedom of speech for casuals who are threatened with the sack if they speak up about saefty.
Labour hire contracts have been exploiting workers for years and the CMFEU Union bosses, the mine owners and the Labor Party and the liberal national governments in New South Wales and Canberra have done nothing about it, and they don’t want to do anything about it. Union bosses do very well, very nicely out of these labour hire contracts.
The One Nation, Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill 2022, will put an end to this unfair abuse. With our previous work and this Bill, One Nation is now the party of the workers.
https://img.youtube.com/vi/dHEZFdypZok/0.jpg360480Senator Malcolm Robertshttps://www.malcolmrobertsqld.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/One-Nation-Logo1-300x150.pngSenator Malcolm Roberts2022-02-24 13:58:542022-02-24 15:22:57One Nation introduces Equal pay for Equal work Labour hire bill
It is a disgrace that the QLD Workplace Health and Safety prosecutor did not charge and make accountable the Grosvenor Mine operators for the badly injured casual coal miners in the mine explosion in May 2020.
Senator Roberts said, “Anglo American have a duty of care to its workforce, and it is inexplicable that an explosion can occur, five miners get badly injured and almost die, and there is no accountability back to the operator.
“Anglo American are treating its casual coal miners as literally being expendable with no serious consequences of their neglect to the keep the mine safe for workers now and in the future.”
Senator Roberts has listened with casual coal miners in NSW and QLD and some of the serious mining incidents can be traced to the culture of disrespect and exploitation of coal mine workers. The culture of penny-pinching, fear and intimidation is especially prevalent in the growing casual / labour hire segment
Senator Roberts said, “It is a gross injustice that casual miners are discouraged from reporting safety issues for fear of losing their jobs.
Queensland Coal Mining Safety and Health Advisory Committee consists of majority membership of mine owners / operators and unions, and neither group represent nor have any interaction with casual coal miners.
Senator Roberts said, “The casual coal miner does not have a place at the table, nor any representation, on key committees that determine safety standards and address safety concerns. “The Labor Palaszczuk government has no integrity when it comes to keeping casual coal miners safe.”
https://i0.wp.com/www.malcolmrobertsqld.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/dominik-vanyi-Mining-unsplash-scaled.jpg?fit=2560%2C1707&ssl=117072560Senator Malcolm Robertshttps://www.malcolmrobertsqld.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/One-Nation-Logo1-300x150.pngSenator Malcolm Roberts2022-02-23 11:54:062022-02-23 11:54:13MEDIA RELEASE: No justice for injured Grosvenor coal miners is a disgrace
After an independent report vindicated One Nation and casual coal miner’s accusations of unscrupulous malpractice, the pressure has been on the Coal Long Service Leave Scheme to give workers a fair go and on Government to clean up their agency. Coal LSL initially tried to refuse coming to Senate Estimates and over the course of many more sessions repeatedly denied anything was wrong. We now know that was a lie.
Transcript
Chair.
Okay, thank you. I will go to Senator Roberts.
Thank you chair, and thank you for attending again. And, my first question is going to the to the minister, and I note that the KPMG review of Coal LSL report came out today.
Yes.
I haven’t seen it, but it came out.
Yes, it’s out.
So we’re looking forward to reading that. Thank you very much for arranging that.
Thank you for working so constructively with government on it.
Well, it’s a big concern as you know, for us, the coal miners in Queensland and New South Wales. Now, I note that KPMG was engaged to undertake the review of Coal LSL, in relation to the underpayment and abuse of casual coal miners. KPMG has also conducted the audit of Coal LSL. Doesn’t that create a conflict of interest? And what did you do to manage this conflict? Because the audit could have influenced the review and the review could have influenced the audit.
Look, I don’t regard that as giving rise to a conflict of interest. There was no direct financial interest for KPMG to do anything other than act consistently, with its duties as an independent examiner there.
Senator, I’m aware there was an audit,
and commissioned by the corporations, it’s conducted by PWC.
During procurement processor. When we selected an independent review and a KPMG, we looked at any consultant and at the time with engaged to buy. The corporations may causing a perception of a conflict interest, we have exclude them. So at the time we engaged KPMG and the KPMG wasn’t working with the collective corporations or any other projects, but Miss Pearl Kumar may have given updates on. Are they been engaging KPMG on the consult?
You welcome, thank Senator. Thank you, Senator.
I can confirm that KPMG has not been engaged by Coal LSL to conduct any work. They’ve not been involved in our internal audit programmes. They’re not engaged by the ANAO to do our external audit. So, from, yeah, I think we’re confident to say that any conflict of interest certainly wouldn’t exist with KPMG conducting that work on us.
Now I’m going to leave out my second question because the report may, the review report may address that. So I’ll just go straight to my third. When will Coal LSL fix its broken system that disadvantages coal miners, casual coal miners everywhere? And when would you remove the biassed and conflicted members from the board, so workers get a fair go? I’m talking here specifically about what I see and what we’ve talked about for a long time now. The conflicts of interest with having significant, well 50/50 minerals council in New South Wales and CFMEU from New South Wales involved. When will that be addressed?
Senator Roberts, without wanting to spoil your reading, because you know, spoiler alerts are sometimes needed on these things. One of the recommendations in the report is that there’d be independent directors added to the board and the expectation that that would assist with dealing with the problem you raise.
Okay. Thank you. We’re pleased to hear that. Last question, Chair. The one key resources case where many casual coal miners missed out on their fair pay back pay conditions, seems to have been blatant phoenixing to us. Yet, this rip-off of workers was accepted by your government, the courts, labour and the CFMEU and Hunter Valley. More needs to be done to protect casual coal workers to get equal pay and entitlements and safety. One nation has proposed the equal pay for equal work bill to protect casual coal workers. What are you doing to make sure that this doesn’t happen again people have lost there.
The KPMG report and I’ll paraphrase somewhat here, acknowledges that there has been difficulties and confusion associated with a lack of clarity on what constitutes a black coal worker and also the changing environment and timetables on which people work. It plans out our ways in which that can be dealt with so that we don’t face that problem in future. It also provides some good recommendations for how to resolve those concerns as they have arisen in the past. I’m optimistic that as we implement the government’s response to those recommendations, we will have that in a more satisfactory place for everyone involved.
Because this is affecting tens of thousands of families who are significantly underpaid compared with permanent workers doing the same job. But it’s just one of a suite of issues. This is just, it’s very important to coal miners. And we’ve been relentless in this, and we’re pleased to see what you’re doing, but it’s a one tiny aspect of the bigger picture, which we can.
Look, I share your sincere concern for making sure that this works for everybody. And that’s why I’m really optimistic that what’s come to us through the KPMG report, and all the recommendations to government have been accepted, in, you know one form or another. And I’m really pleased to say that we’ll be working to do what’s necessary to make all of that much more functional for the future.
I look forward to reading the report and thank you chair.
I talked to Marcus Paul on Thursday about the current inquiry into casuals in the workforce, the WA government’s shocking move to ban the Australian Christian Lobby from a state-owned venue and progress on the Defence Suicide Royal Commission.
Transcript
[Marcus] With a smile on his noggin, is Malcolm Roberts, One Nation Senator, hello mate.
[Malcolm] G’day, Marcus, how are you?
[Marcus] All right, well you saved a little bit of face up there on the Gold Coast last night.
[Malcolm] Yeah, I didn’t get to watch it because I’m calling from Bowen right now, and last night I was addressing the Chamber of Commerce, we had a fabulous night.
[Marcus] Okay.
[Malcolm] Bowen’s the place with the world’s best mangoes, but I saw the result this morning.
[Marcus] Yeah, and Bowen, I remember it well in my travels up in north Queensland, gorgeous spot, and you’re right, that’s where the world’s best mangoes come from.
[Marcus] All right, tell me about this inquiry into security of work at the focus of course, on the casualization of our workforce. What’s happening here?
[Malcolm] Well mate, you know that I’ve been, really pushing hard on this issue for coal miners in the Hunter Valley and in central Queensland, and initially even Labour ridiculed me and just said, no this is nonsense, it’s not happening. I think some of the Labour MPs were trying to cover it up. But it’s now come out after two years of pushing this issue, it’s now come out into the open, and Labour and Liberals, sorry, Labour and the Cross bench, and the Greens have got together and we’ve got this inquiry up, sponsored by Senator Sheldon, and we’re looking into it. They’re taking the gloves off and getting right into it. And, but what I’m doing now is that I’m broadening it because job security, which is what this is all about, is not just about casuals, it’s about industry security because the Labour and Greens’ policies are ending coal mining, and it’s also about personal security because I’ve been shocked, as I’ve shared with you quite openly over the last few months.
[Marcus] Yeah.
[Malcolm] That people’s safety is really jeopardised and people have been crippled, and just tossed on the scrap heap with no workers’ compensation. That kind of stuff has got to end and state and federal governments are at fault, and we’ve really got to shake things up. And I’ve been very critical of the Hunter Valley CFMEU, and I remain so.
[Marcus] Yep.
[Malcolm] They have abandoned workers, completely, they’ve enabled enterprise agreements that have sold workers out. But I want to compliment the CFMEU construction division, because I read their submission into this inquiry, and it is first-class, comprehensive. And what was very disappointing was, yesterday, we did it, we asked questions of various organisations on Tuesday when I was in Rocky. And then yesterday, I had to stop at Marlborough in the bush and ask questions of the mining companies and labour hire companies. They were evasive mate. They just don’t get to the point, ’cause I think all along this whole issue has been, how do we cut miner’s wages? That’s what it’s all about.
[Marcus] Labour hire companies, essentially cut real wages, I don’t care how anybody tries to spin it, that’s exactly what happens. You and I both know it, and it’s high time that we do something about it. Tell me what’s up.
[Malcolm] Some of the companies mate, are actually giving people an introduction to mining. There’s some very good labour hire companies around.
[Marcus] Yeah, but I don’t agree with them.
[Malcolm] But some of them, they’re just ripping people off. I mean how did you get a mining company employing its own people, and then paying a commission to a labour hire firm for hiring other people? Unless you cut mining wages. You can’t give them a profit on top of miner’s wages, so they cut miner’s wages. That’s what’s going on, but there are some good ones.
[Marcus] Yeah well, maybe I might just disagree with these sorts of labour hire companies anyway, because eventually, it comes down to first and foremost how much money the labour hire company can make and workers, who are the ones putting in all the hard yards are always those that seem to lose out. Anyway, let’s put that aside now.
[Malcolm] Well, what it also shows Marcus, is that some of these mining companies, don’t understand that safety is not a cost, safety actually saves money and increases production. They also don’t seem to understand that if you pay people doing the same job, different rates of pay.
[Marcus] Of course.
[Malcolm] Then you’re gonna create animosity, it hurts morale, hurts safety, hurts commitment. That hurts productivity. It doesn’t make sense.
[Marcus] Yeah, it’s not just in the mining sector, labour hire companies hire people in factories across Southwestern Sydney and I can tell you some stories and I will one day that’ll make your toes curl. I mean, they just are ripping off workers.
[Malcolm] Yes.
[Marcus] All right, WA, let’s move over to Western Australia. I see the government there is upset. The Australian Christian Lobby, they’ve cancelled an event hire at the convention centre. The ACL had hired the convention centre, and the Labour state government cancelled the booking. Why?
[Malcolm] Well, apparently some gay and trans activists complained, and so the Labour government said, no, you can’t have that event. After they’d already signed up the Australian Christian Lobby to have that event in their convention centre, and also at one of the towns south of Perth. But Martyn Iles has been doing a fabulous job, I attended his presentation in Brisbane, it was first-class, really getting done. I think he calls it “The Truth of It.” And he’s doing a really good job, and what McGowan’s government, in the Labour of government in WA, I think they’re afraid of what he’s doing, and they’re just trying to shut him down. But really, it’s getting like Nazi Germany and China. It ends religious freedom. These people went out as a legitimate, everyday organisation and booked a venue, and then they’d been cancelled. So, this is just an end of free speech in our country. That’s what Labour is doing in Western Australia.
[Marcus] All right, well, the ACL, I’m certainly no fans of theirs, I think they’re a little too far right in some of their views, but look, they certainly do have a right in this country to assembly and get together and discuss issues that are of concern to them. So, I find it very odd and you’re right, I tend to agree, why are we shutting down conversation? That doesn’t sound very democratic to me.
[Malcolm] No, and that’s a form of control, and Marcus, you know I’ve said it many times, wherever there is control, beneath control there is fear. The Labour government in WA is afraid of these people speaking up. There are a lot of Christians, good solid Christians in WA, and they’re shutting them down. That’s not right.
[Marcus] All right, of course we know that the Royal Commission into Defence and Veteran Suicide has been set up, we’ve got an interim report due in August of next year, a final report, not until 2023. We certainly do need to do more to support our veterans.
[Malcolm] Yes, it’s something that Pauline and I have been pushing for quite a while, but I must give compliments and appreciation to Jacqui Lambie who has been pushing this Royal Commission for quite a while now.
[Marcus] Yep.
[Malcolm] And it’s not just in the veterans, it’s also in the defence suicide, and they wanna look at systemic issues and common themes around suicide, contemplation of suicide, and feelings of suicide, you’ve given a date, and I encourage all veterans and current members of the defence force, who have a point to make, to contact the Commission and make a submission, and then see if you can become a witness before the Royal Commission, it’s really important. I’ve said it before, we have a fabulous armed forces in terms of the commitment of these people, over 100 years. And what it is, is that we actually send them, we bend them, but we don’t mend them. And that’s where we’ve gotta do a better job of looking after people, when I think the Romans first noticed that, you know, what’s that a couple of thousand years ago. When a man is sent to war and he comes back, he’s a different person. We’ve gotta acknowledge that and look after these people.
[Marcus] All right mate, good to have you on, we’ll chat again next week.
[Malcolm] All right mate, thanks.
[Marcus] Take care. One Nation Senator Malcolm Roberts.
https://i0.wp.com/www.malcolmrobertsqld.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/RadioTemplateSquare.00_00_02_10.Still001.png?fit=1920%2C1920&ssl=119201920Senator Malcolm Robertshttps://www.malcolmrobertsqld.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/One-Nation-Logo1-300x150.pngSenator Malcolm Roberts2021-07-16 15:14:262021-07-16 15:14:36Christians silenced in WA and Defence Suicide Royal Commission – 2SM with Marcus Paul
Small Business is the largest employer but suffers the most hardship in trying to comply with the weight of so much complex regulation. Small business is the key to getting Australia out of the mess it is in.
Let mum and dad business thrive and so will the country.
Transcript
Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
Senator Roberts.
[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you, Chair. Thank you Mr. Billson and your staff for coming.
Thank you.
[Malcolm Roberts] Small business, we know is Australia’s largest employer. It’s the engine room of our economy. The previous small business ombudsman in a report said, “A tax system that works for small business,” that was the title of the report, in February 2021 at page six, recommendation 21 stated “that the government must undertake tax reform to prohibit the ATO from charging penalties and interest issuing garnishee notices or instigating other recovery action on tax arising from a decision that is disputed”. We support this change as the ATO’s current policy could kill many struggling small businesses and it’s not fair. It’s completely unjust. On May 13th 2021, the Honourable Stuart Robert, MP, Minister for Employment Workforce Skills, Small and Family Business said in parliament that the government too would back small business over the ATO. The message is clear, in your new role as ombudsman, will you be advocating for this tax reform? And if so, what are you doing?
Yes, and yes, we are advocating for a very thoughtful use of the enormous powers the tax office has.
[Malcolm Roberts] They are enormous.
They are very substantial.
[Malcolm Roberts] They make laws basically.
Well, I mean the thing is we’ve been consistent on three fronts, Senator, one is they’ve got quite a lot of discretion about how they use it. So we’ve been trying to put a spotlight on how that discretion is exercised so that it’s consistent and thoughtful. Deputy Commissioner, Deb Jenkins, and I meet regularly about our experience with tax office interactions. I think you might’ve missed my absolutely, gripping opening remarks where I did touch on some of these issues, Senator, where we’ve had punitive penalties of 200% for late payments. Well, sorry, payments of superannuation guaranteed contributions being made in a timely way but not processed in a timely way. And that can trigger a liability. The tax office is saying to us they form a position of these are the rules. We’ve not got a lot of wiggle room with those 200% penalties. They’re now reflecting on that and dialling back that a little bit and putting more discretion that’s less punitive into their decision-making. Secondly, there’s a measure been recently announced that an aggrieved taxpayer can, seeking a decision from the AAT, can actually ask the AAT to direct the tax office to suspend recovery actions. So that you’d know well, if they judged that we were liable for a tax amount they can pursue the recovery of it even though it’s disputed. And in some cases we’ve heard that can limit the aggrieved taxpayer’s capacity to argue their own case. So we think-
[Malcolm Roberts] And to stay in business.
That’s right and so we welcome that announcement, we thought that’s a good step in the right direction. There’s also scope for me to come to our office. So if there’s a dispute a small business has with the tax office our concierge service can do three things. One, if we think it’s really odd, we can suggest to the tax office, they might want ever another look at this because we think they’ve perhaps made an error. Secondly, there is a mechanism to get fresh eyes review within the tax office so that someone else can have a look at the assessment to see where that judgement –
[Malcolm Roberts] That is a fundamental problem because the assessor can sometimes be the reviewer of the assessment.
And we were wary about how effective that measure was going to be. It was trialled initially. But the feedback we got was overwhelmingly positive from the small businesses that used it, even those that didn’t get the outcome that they wanted. So we were very, in that tax report that you’re referring to, we were urging for that to be maintained as a permanent service. So that’s there-
[Malcolm Roberts] So you’re advocating for structural change in that way?
And really a thoughtfulness around the way the tax office uses those awesome powers that it has. We surface case studies and think you know, maybe this could have been handled a bit better. Deputy Commissioner Deb Jenkins is a wonderful ally. I think the Inspector General of Taxation is doing some good work as well around understanding the nature of the tax debt. It’s often said small businesses is a big tax debt problem. Well, in total numbers, it’s a big number, but it’s spread across an awful lot of small businesses. And then there’s an awful lot more that are paying, that are fulfilling their obligations in a very timely way and that should be celebrated as well. The last one Senator is the idea of this AAT review. So we offer as part of that service and it was touched on earlier that $1.4 million administered funds we can have an aggrieved small business tax payer come to us, say they’re not happy. Say why they’re not happy. We will collate relevant material, suggest to them, maybe they might be misreading the tea leaves or we might suggest to the tax office they might’ve misread their obligations, see if we can get an outcome. That doesn’t happen, we may support and arrange a review by a tax expert, there’s about 20 around the country that we might refer, or refer that small business tax payer to where they can give an assessment of their prospects of success at the AAT. And then we may also provide a role in assisting that small business tax payer at the AAT, if they decide to proceed to that point of challenge.
[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. That’s a comprehensive reply. And I know one expert who’s dealt with tax and small business for many, many years, and also the next topic I’m gonna get onto, he estimates that the $25 billion that small business owes to the ATO comprises 60% penalty and 40% principal and interest. And of course the penalty builds on that interest. So it’s huge.
And I think there’s an Inspector General report coming out on that very matter to break up the client group tax debt and then there’s some interest in what the components are like what you described. So I’d encourage you to keep an eye out for that report, Senator, that is also a gripping read.
[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. I just mentioned the topic of my second, my second question is, what can be done to reduce industrial relations complexity for small business? The tax, sorry, the Fair Work Act is about that thick, when it’s printed out on piecec of paper, that’s horrendous for any small business employee any small business employer to get their head around it. And we need to restore the employer-employee relationship, surely.
Yeah, it’s difficult for many small businesses who want to do the right thing to know precisely what that is. I did point earlier to Senator O’Neill’s question around small business measures in the budget. One of the reg tech measures is to actually try and help small businesses navigate the award system. There’s also an advice line for small businesses that aren’t a member of an industry association. They’re not of a size where they’ve got an HR professional that they can get some advice. Our agency has also put out a report about simplification and for the purposes of full disclosure, Senator, I actually authored a report for the Fair Work Commissioner judge, his Honour Justice Ian Ross, about practical steps I thought could be taken within the current law as it is to make the system work better for smaller employers.
[Malcolm Roberts] Could we get a copy of that?
Yeah, That also is a good read,
[Malcolm Roberts] If you could send that on notice.
and I will make sure you receive that.
[Malcolm Roberts] Send that on notice? That addresses my next question, which is that, what better ways are there for small business that are not limited just to simply developing a small business award? That’d be one thing on the list, I’m sure. But are they contained in your list?
Yeah, there was, yes, it didn’t actually advocate for small business award.
[Malcolm Roberts] What are the measures?
It actually advocated for a small business annexure to each award. That was basically the essential elements that a smaller employer needed to turn their mind to. And it made some recommendations around the effectiveness of the fair dismissal code. It did speak to the formation of a small business division within the Fair Work Commission so that their procedures are right sized and relevant to small employers. It also called out the impact of the club. Dare I say, industry associations, the legal profession and unions that actually revel in the complexity, it makes their insights and expertise very valuable.
[Malcolm Roberts] And the employer industry groups? You’ve got the people who benefit from problems and no solutions.
Well, it did point out that they probably are less concerned about complexity whereas a small business owner and leader, he or she can create a great innovation and change the very nature of society and then needs to get help to understand what their workplace obligations are because it’s so complex, it’s so nuanced, it was putting the point forward that very intelligent small business owners shouldn’t need to rely on external advice to be surefooted in their compliance with their employment obligations.
[Malcolm Roberts] Well, let’s take care of my next question. Are there still gaps between your office and the Fair Work Ombudsman that need to be improved? For example, small business support?
Well, they’re doing more and I’ve met with the Fair Work Ombudsman. We had a panel of regulators, Senator, was a cold night in Canberra and I’m sure we took an enormous amount of the audience away from Home and Away when we were talking about regulatory challenge, it was just a real cahoot, Senator, but we were working quite collaboratively. They’ve got some good resources. One of the things we can do is amplify and give higher visibility to those resources and also work carefully with them. They have their own small business helpline. I actually launched it in a former life. So I’m quite familiar with the need for good advice but we also thought there was some structural opportunities at the Fair Work Commission that could work alongside the Fair Work Ombudsman and make the system work better for smaller employers.
[Malcolm Roberts] Okay, next one is a specific around some of the broader areas you’ve been talking about. Do you get feedback from small business that the Fair Work system is too expensive for small businesses? For example, not just the complexity and the cost that entails and the distraction out of the business but paying “go away” money because they’re too busy to defend claims. For example, those kinds of things?
Yeah-
[Malcolm Roberts] And employees on the same note?
They tend not to come directly to us, but when we’re out on the road, Senator, it is a vivid topic for those that have been through it.
[Malcolm Roberts] And applies to employees, not just small business employers.
That’s correct, and one of the things that we were highlighting in our work is that the award system and the power imbalance assumes that the employer has got enormous resources and capability and the employee hasn’t. In many small businesses, it actually can be the reverse, say an employee with the support of an advisor or a representative, perhaps a union that can take cases and to appeal over and over again, probably has more horsepower and resources than the small business will ever have. And that was one of the recommendations we sought to address in my report, not the agency’s, but the report I provided his Honour Justice Ian Ross.
[Malcolm Roberts] Could you just recap, I think Senator Brockman asked this similar question, what are the main issues facing small business and what are you doing to sort these out? I know you mentioned bank loans, some find it difficult to get insurance?
Well, access to finance remains a big issue, Insurance remains a big issue as Senator Hume was alluding to, the focus on digital engagement is very important that we see a spotty level of engagement. I would hazard a guess that a significant minority are less open to the delicious possibilities that deeper digital engagement can offer. They may have been of my vintage, sir, where there were vendors promising the world when I had more hair that tech would change my business and it didn’t. And we often hear about that and those people now at a more mature age still in the economy might be hesitant to take up some of the digital engagement opportunities that are there. So that’s a big issue. For us, we still think government procurement offers great potential for greater small business engagement. And we think that’s a key priority for us. Women’s entrepreneurship, it’s also an area where we’re quite interested in and I’m also quite evangelical about alternative dispute resolution. It’s interesting in Australia a lot of small businesses turn to the regulator to defend their own economic interest because they’re frightened of cost order gorillas if they pursue legal recourse, they’re just worried. So they turn to the regulator. This is quite unusual in other comparable jurisdictions the people whose economic interest has been infringed upon are very up and about defending their own interests and are less reliant on the regulator. We think there might be something in that where the way the court system operates power imbalances may well be amplified throughout the legal process, me as a small business, you as a behemoth business owner, you’ve got five QCs, I’ve got my solicitor and we’re having a discussion and you’re reminding me that if I lose I get to pay for your crew. That can be a real disincentive to engage in that court based process. We think we can probably come up with some better avenues. That’s a priority for us as well.
[Malcolm Roberts] What about tax? Not just personal tax, but business tax and especially the complexity of the tax system?
We put a report out, when was that? May I consult the Deputy’s Ombudsman who was here when I wasn’t, sir?
February.
February, that just rolled off. It’s quite fresh, Senator. I can make sure we refer that inquiry report to you as well. And your winter reading list in Canberra will be abundant, sir.
[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. Based upon your experience, although it’s only limited for a few months, should the role or powers of the Small Business Ombudsman be enhanced and if so, in what regard?
Yeah, we think there’s some scope for having more nudge ability to get disputing parties around a mediation table and potentially into arbitration to get matters sorted out quickly so that businesses can get back to business-
[Malcolm Roberts] What sort of power would that look like?
Well, at the moment, whilst we carry the title of Ombudsman we have no determinative power. We can’t decide anything. All we can do is facilitate and enable a process and put the parties together and give them wise advice, we hope, that they see it’s in everyone’s interest to sort it out quickly. Where there’s some few areas where we think a little bit of nudge potential might encourage those parties to engage in good faith and get those disputes resolved quickly, affordably and get business back to business.
[Malcolm Roberts] Since the last round of Senate estimates, which is what three months ago? Has there been any work done to identify opportunities for small business including red tape reduction and other initiatives, business codes, would it like to be reviewed and updated to ensure fairness for employers and employees?
Yes, we’ve engaged on a couple of reviews that other portfolios are doing. We’ve also been active on mutual skills recognition across jurisdictions, which was a measure included in the budget, so that if you’re a trades person in one state, you could readily apply your trade in another and have your qualifications carried over. We’ve also had some discussions with industry associations about their pain points, particularly where they might be multi-jurisdictional. Some examples, sir, may include, well you’ve seen we’ve been active in the Australia post area, where they felt complex and diferring state regulation was the reason for them to announce that they intended to discontinue perishable goods delivery. And we said, well, don’t discontinue it, let’s work out what these regulatory challenges are that you speak of. And so we’re engaged in that process as well. Areas of-
[Malcolm Roberts] A review of the business Fair Dismissal Code from both an employer and employee perspective to make it fairer for both?
That was a recommendation in our report.
[Malcolm Roberts] Okay, thank you
Actually, to make it function as it was intended, might be a more accurate description.
[Malcolm Roberts] Which protects both parties?
Yes.
[Malcolm Roberts] Employers and employees. Has the Small Business Ombudsman had the opportunity to engage in the development and review of regulation and information guidelines for small business in relation to casual conversion? That’s the conversion of casual employees to permanent employment?
No sir, we haven’t.
[Malcolm Roberts] Are you aware of the casual conversion guidelines?
Vividly so sir.
[Malcolm Roberts] Are they fit for purpose?
Well, there’s some positive response from small businesses that there’s now clarity around that, there was some chagrin that other reforms could perhaps have been included in that legislation that works. That’s the feedback we’ve had.
[Malcolm Roberts] So you’re passing that on?
Well, anyone who asks us, we’re not shy, Senator, we will pass on our feedback.
[Malcolm Roberts] To the Fair Work Commission?
Yeah, at that stage we haven’t engaged with them on that topic. The last discussion we had with the Fair Work Commission was at an officer level just on things they’re doing to streamline their processes, to make them more accessible for small businesses.
[Malcolm Roberts] They’re responsible, no it’s the Fair Work Ombudsman that’s responsible for the casual conversion guidelines-
The commission set the rules and the ombudsmans make sure that they’re being implemented.
[Malcolm Roberts] You had discussions with the Fair Work Ombudsman,
Only in terms of their guidance material they make available. Yeah, but not on that particular topic you asked, to be very specifically about
[Malcolm Roberts] Will you be having that?
casual conversion. I can add that to my list, ’cause I catch, We, I think I even chair a federal regulator agency group meeting where we all get together and work out who’s doing what?
[Malcolm Roberts] So you’re the Ombudsman’s Ombudsman.
I am, I think I’m the passionate but neutral chair amongst powerful regulators, sir.
[Malcolm Roberts] Okay. One final question, Chair, we’ve now got the term circuit breaker instead of lockdown.
[Mr. Billson] Yes.
[Malcolm Roberts] Which to me and others seems to be an attempt to bypass the growing resentment towards lockdowns. And they’ve belted small business now for about one of the quarter years. Not for the whole time, but intermittently along that time. A taxi operator, a taxi driver in Sydney on Friday, when I went home from Canberra, said to me that it’s not only belted his business on Friday the sudden shutdown in Victoria but it’s affected coffee shops, restaurant owners, hotels motels, a whole swath of businesses all with no advanced warning
I talked about this in my opening remarks, Senator, that they’re not-
No, they were there and it did point to the fact that that was a circuit breaker lockdown which created probably some expectation to be short but now the discussion is it might be longer. My point to the committee was it, in my view, it highlighted the need for greater certainty and predictability for business about what different types of lockdowns would trigger in terms of support and other measures that business could count on. Because at the moment there’s not a clear menu, there’s not a clear set of trigger points where people go, okay we’re now having one of those lockdowns, call it what you will, but we know the suite of measures that accompany that, that would give small businesses good clarity and it would also identify who’s expected to do what when these events occur, and that’s not just government, I mean, at what point does the conversation move to what’s the finance sector doing to accommodate these businesses, all the issues around leasing, that was all part of it and I’m from Victoria, Senator, and to be here in person, I didn’t go home, because I wouldn’t be allowed back but that’s the sort of thing that we think would be most helpful.
[Malcolm Roberts] And then we see, just listening driving home one evening, listening to Talkback Radio, which in Brisbane sometimes carries the feed from Sydney, And there was a Sydney sider saying, okay we get the hundred dollar voucher for travel to Cairns, stay in Cairns, but why the hell would I go to Cairns and risk two weeks in a lockdown afterwards at 3000 bucks just to save a hundred dollars. I mean those kinds of things and WA, Queensland and Victoria in particular have been capricious with these lockdowns and are you getting much resentment from the small business on that?
Yeah, absolutely, we are. I mean, they’re infuriated and bewildered by what is sensed to be inconsistencies across jurisdictions, proportionality to responses, why some jurisdictions treat certain events that look to a small business owner’s eyes as very similar as somewhere else, and that’s treated differently. That’s not surefooted conditions for a business owner to navigate and that’s why some improved predictability about trigger points and what sort of support they can count on would be, I think, a very positive step as we learn to live with COVID.
[Malcolm Roberts] The Chair is giving me the signal to wind up so-
I think he’s giving me the signal Senator, so I will.
It’s a general signal,
In my general direction.
[Malcolm Roberts] United Nations… Just a final comment, The United Nations World Health Organisation which I happen to think is a dishonest, corrupt and incompetent organisation –
Can I take that as a comment, Senator?
[Malcolm Roberts] Yes, even, and you don’t have to give your opinion. Even the world Health Organisation has said that lock downs are meant to be used as a last resort initially only just to get control of the virus. Does small business look upon the use of lock downs as an inability of the states to get control of the virus, so the virus is essentially managing the state economy rather than the state managing the virus?
Senator you’re leading me, and I might let that one just go through to the keeper okay?
[Chair] I think we need to treat that one as a comment. Thank you, Senator Roberts.
Chair, can I just use that though cheekily to flag that the United Nations Micro, Small and Medium Enterprise Day of Recognition is coming up in June. So that would be a great opportunity to say thank you to the small businesses and family enterprises you count on. That would be a good thing coming out of the UN. And I might hand back to you, Chair.
Mr. Billson, I don’t think anyone would be left with any doubt about your passion for the small business sector and your suitability for the role. Thank you very much for appearing for the first time, I’m sure it’s not the last, we will see you again in a few months very likely.
Thank you, Chair, thank you Senators.
And thank you very much for your time, and I wish you all safe travels back to wherever you are heading. Thank you.
https://img.youtube.com/vi/XnNcGDeo-RE/0.jpg360480Senator Malcolm Robertshttps://www.malcolmrobertsqld.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/One-Nation-Logo1-300x150.pngSenator Malcolm Roberts2021-06-03 14:14:402021-06-03 14:26:14Small Businesses are the backbone of the country
The one thing we here again and again from small businesses is that Industrial Relations in this country is simply too confusing. You just about have to be a specialised lawyer to simply employ someone and be across all of the applicable legislation. The awards and language need to be made much simpler if small business has a hope of surviving. A fair day’s wage for a fair day’s work, and a way to punish dodgy employers who dishonestly try to break the rules: that should be the simple basics of industrial relations but we’ve complicated it far too much
Transcript
Senator Roberts.
[Roberts] Thank you Chair.
Thank you again for being here today. My questions cover a broad range. In the Fair Work Commission statement, dated 9th of April, 2021, regarding the Casual Terms Award reviewed 2021. This review must be completed by 27th of September, 2021. Are you on target for this date? And what has been identified as going over that date so far?
[Luby] Uh…
[Furlong] Ms. Luby
Thanks Mr. Furlong, I’ll take this one as well. Thanks Senator. Yes, the Fair Work Commission is definitely on target for that. That’s a date that was set in the statute and where we’re working towards that. So the Commission has issued a number of information papers outlining the range of casual terms that are found in Modern Awards. A full bench has been listed for hearing to consider a small group of Awards that cover either a large range of employees or have sort of quirky casual terms. And so that’ll be some, I guess some principles or precedent will be set by that full bench and then that will be applied to the remaining Modern Awards. So we’re working through that.
[Roberts] Okay.
With respect.
[Roberts] Thank you. Now from the Casual Terms Award Review 2021, at 12 and 13 of the Fair Work Commission Statement, I note that the Black Coal Mining Industry Award, MA000001, has not been included in the initial review. Yet, the background of that is that there’s a lot of confusion and uncertainty, in the black coal mining industry, because there was no provision in the award for casuals on production. But nonetheless, the Hunter Valley CFMEU did a deal to get that into the Enterprise Agreements. So that meant because there was no award provision, there was no, basically anybody under that EA was locked into permanent casual rort and they couldn’t get out. Now with the legislation that the government introduced in March, there is a pathway to permanent work for all casuals, but I think it needs to be clarified as quickly as possible. Many everyday Australians think it should have priority, the Black Coal Mining Award should have priority for definition of a casual mine production worker, given the harm it’s done to so many casual black coal miners, the lack of that definition. Can you ensure that this Award is reviewed promptly, please?
Senator, well, obviously it’s not for me to determine what order that the Awards are looked at. That’s a matter for the President and full bench presiding over that. I’d just like to clarify that the purpose of these proceedings are to determine whether the casual terms in the Awards are compliant or not contradictory with the terms that were introduced in the Supporting Employment Bill. It doesn’t go to whether there are entitlements to casual work in a particular Award. The issue of whether there should be the possibility of casual engagement under the Black Coal Award, was considered as part of the Four Yearly Review. And I think Mr. Furlong spoke into that previous estimates and it’s been covered in some of our Questions on Notice. That’s perhaps a different issue that could be raised at, and it could be raised at any time, if the parties were to seek to include a casual term for those production employees under the Black Coal Award.
[Roberts] Okay, so there’s nothing to stop a casual worker, who’s on permanent casual rort at the moment, thanks to Enterprise Agreements, from actually casual conversion, if they’re offered that conversion now?
No, I’m sorry Senator. There is no provision for casual employment for a production employee under the Black Coal Award.
So if I might. My understanding of the legislation it covers, because it’s been placed into National Employment Standards, it applies broader than all the Awards. So if someone is a casual, whether there’s an Award term for casuals or not, then the provisions within the Act will apply. So yes, there is a pathway to conversion because it’s been put into the National Employment Standards.
[Roberts] Okay, so thank you. So it overall
[Luby] Thank you, Mr. Hehir. Sorry.
[Roberts] It overrides the Award. So, people
[Luby] I apologise I apologise Senator for not getting that.
[Roberts] Yeah. So just to be clear Mr. Hehir, the people who are working as casuals, when the changes were made in March, will now have access to conversion once they’re offered?
So that’s my understanding because it’s been placed into the National Employment Standards. It expands beyond the award system and does apply more broadly.
[Roberts] Thank you. Because there are a lot of people cursing Enterprise Agreements that basically locked them into permanent casuals. How long after this review
[O’Neill] If I could get your attention Mr. Roberts. We asked a couple questions yesterday about these matters with the conversion. Under 15 employees, there will be a different
[Hehir] Thank you Senator
[O’Neill] situation.
[Hehir] O’Neill.
[O’Neill] But I guess one of the things that we got yesterday that’s important was it’s a test of reasonableness about whether those coal miners will actually be able to
[Roberts] Oh that test is
[O’Neill] Get
[Roberts] Yeah.
[O’Neill] the reasonableness
[Hehir] I think
[O’Neill] Test. Yep, yep.
[Hehir] reasonableness is the goal Senator O’Neill.
Yep.
[Hehir] Well I’m sure…
[O’Neill] Well it’s it’s gonna matter
[Hehir] Council, Senator Roberts.
[Roberts] In the Fair Work Commission Statement, dated 9th of April, 2021 regarding the Casual Terms Award Review 2021 at 12, I note the hesitancy regarding the definition of simple terms. Can you advise if your concerns over language will hold up the review process or have they been resolved?
No Senator. I think that we’re still on track to meet that deadline of the 27th of September.
[Roberts] Thank you. So we’ve been advocating for a fair go for Australian workers for a while now. Since the last Senate estimates round, can you tell me what due diligence has been put in place for Fair Work Commissioners to use to ensure that the boot analysis improves and that we do not see any more failures like the Chandler MacLeod Northern District of New South Wales Black Coal Mining Agreement of 2015? My understanding is that there was no Enterprise Agreement. The Chandler MacLeod initially employed miners under the Award, where there was no provision for casuals. Then they came up with the Enterprise Agreement and that breached the boot test from what we can work out. So we need to make sure that miners are protected in future with Enterprise Agreements that comply with the boot test. Can you tell me what’s being done like that to make sure there’s no more failures?
Just a couple of things on this, Senator. It’s actually been on notice and to a reasonable sort of extent, in relation to the decision about the Chandler MacLeod Agreement, it was approved by Senior Deputy President Harrison. And while the decision was short, she did go to the boot, the analysis of the boot. Ms. Luby can provide further and better detail on it. But every agreement application that is made to the Commission undergoes a very comprehensive, administrative checklist and was performed by specially skilled staff to ensure that the statutory requirements and pre-lodgement provisions are satisfied. And in terms of Ms. Luby saying that 95% of those applications are made and provided to members within five days, that is the process that is undertaking that first step.
[Roberts]Okay, I’m having a lot of trouble hearing you or understanding. Could you just explain, perhaps you could explain. I understand that you’ve given us a reassurance that the process is going to be followed. Could you please explain the boot analysis process? What are the main steps that the commission now undertakes and is it applied appropriately to each case?
The answer to that question is easy, yes. There’s a legislative checklist that is completed by as I said specially trained staff at the Commission. The template of that checklist is available on our website as well. If you’d like to have a look at it, we can certainly table it for you to have a look at. Bit it is a consistent checklist that is performed for every Enterprise Agreement application that is made.
[Roberts] Okay, thank you. I heard it clearly that time, so we’ll check that checklist ourself. We’ve heard that some union bosses are saying that it is the worker’s responsibility not the unions for what is put to the Commission in relation to Enterprise Agreements. Can you tell me then how you ensure that the workers themselves are happy with the Agreement? And what checks do you have to make sure that you’re satisfied that it’s the workers that are happy with the Enterprise Agreement?
Ms. Luby might want to add to this. Effectively there’s an access period, a statutory access period, Senator. That all, every employee who’s to be covered by that Enterprise Agreement has got access to that Agreement and that the employer has gone to reasonable lengths to explain the terms of the impact of that Enterprise Agreement. Ms. Luby would you like to add anything to that?
Sure, Mr. Furlong. So I guess there’s a few strands to it that the member who assesses the application will look at whether the terms and the effect of the terms of the Agreement were effectively explained to the employees. That’s an important test that’s been the subject of a number of federal court decisions and quite clearly laid out, in terms of the level of detail that must be explained to the employees to give them an opportunity to vote in an informed way. And then clearly there is the vote itself, so that there must be a majority of employees who vote for the agreement, who vote in favour of it. So they’re the primary tests.
[Roberts] Thank you.
We’re also quite transparent about the fact that an application has been made. So an employee will have an opportunity to make a submission to the Commission if they choose to do so.
[Roberts] So what recourse do workers have through the Commission or anywhere else, where a union boss fails to do what they promise to bargain for or where they might ignore workers’ needs in favour of their own interests? How do we make sure union bosses’ held accountable in this process for approving an EA, Enterprise Agreement?
I think Senator, the Commission, as I said, we are quite transparent in terms of when an application is lodged. It’s always published on our website immediately. So it’s available for the employees to see before the application is approved. And during that time it’s not uncommon for an employee to contact the Commission and their email or letter that they put in will be sent directly to the member who’s dealing with the application. So if they’ve raised any concerns that will be brought to the member’s attention.
[Roberts] So what you’re saying is, it seems reasonable to me. What you’re saying is that if an employee has concerns about the employer, or the union bosses, that they need to go and check themselves and take responsibility for the Enterprise Agreement themselves before they vote.
Um..
[Roberts] Vote, inform themselves
[Luby] I guess
[Roberts] So they vote in an informed way.
Yes, definitely and it’s the employer’s responsibility to inform them of the effect of the Agreement.
[Roberts] Thank you.
[Luby] So that’s an quite a proactive step that the employer needs to take.
[Roberts] Okay. Have they been
[Furlong] Senator may I also, sorry. I may also be of assistance. If an Agreement is reached, or past its normal expiry date, a party of the employees covered by that Enterprise Agreement, that is past its normal expiry date, can make an application for that Agreement to be terminated.
[Roberts] Okay, so it gets fairly complicated, doesn’t it, quickly? Have there been any cases regarding casual conversion put to the Commission for determination since the changes to the Fair Work Act earlier this year? And if so, how many And what have been the issues and the results?
Senator, I can take that one. There’s been one application so far, under the new section 66M, that application was an employee in the social and community services sector. It was only recently received and it’s been allocated to a member for hearing.
[Roberts] Okay, so one application for an appeal to conversion. Correct?
Yes.
[Roberts] Thank you.
That’s correct.
[Roberts] Now moving onto another topic. Have wage theft cases increased or decreased in the last 12 months?
That’s a matter for the Fair Work Ombudsman. I understand that they’re giving evidence later this evening.
[Roberts] Yes, we’ve got some questions for them. Thank you. Small business owners frequently find that the cost of being away from work to defend a sometimes spurious, unfair dismissal case or other complaint is too much and they end up paying “go away” money, which everyone knows about, to the employee. What is the Fair Work Commission doing, or what could you do, to help small businesses and small business employees, especially given that they’ve done the heavy lifting during the COVID restrictions and downturn? And many are finding it hard now, both employees and small businesses.
I’m not too sure. I understand that the notes of the term “go away” money, Senator. I can’t say that I necessarily agree with it. There are, we receive approximately 15,000 unfair dismissal applications every year. About 80% of those applications are resolved through agreement, through reconciliation process.
[Roberts] What percentage, sir? I’m sorry.
About 80%.
[Roberts] Thank you.
For those that and the vast majority of them are conducted online, so on the telephone, at a time that hopefully suits both of the parties through that process. And there is no obligation, for the parties, the small business that you’re talking about employers to the employees, and to the applicants to settle but if they arrive at a settlement through that process, then the matter is finalised. They can obviously decide not to settle at that point and have the matter dealt with by a member through arbitration.
[Roberts] Okay.
Ms. Carruthers, anything else you’d like to add to that?
Thank you, Mr. Furlong. Senator I might just add as a useful bit of context, that in about 2/3 of cases where money is paid, it’s for less than $6,000. So they are modest amounts of money that are paid when payments are made. And payments are made in around 80% of matters that are settled.
[Roberts] Yeah, my point is that the Fair Work Act, when it’s printed out is about that thick, laid on its side, it’s that thick. It is so damn complex that employees and employers, don’t know what, small business employers and employees, don’t know where they stand. Many employees right across industry, all sizes of companies, don’t know where they stand and that’s not good enough. So with that, there comes, it’s much easier for one to rort the other, employer to rort the employee, and also for people to avoid accountability. So the complexity of the Fair Work Act is really hindering employment and hindering the employer-employee relationship, which is the fundamental relationship on a workplace. So that’s why I’m asking that question because we know talking to small businesses, listening to them, that they are not hiring people at times because of the complexity and their fear of what will happen. And we’ve got to remove that.
Senator there is a part of your question that we didn’t get to is about what we can do or what we are doing. There are a couple of very large projects that are underway at the moment to improve the services of the Commission. One of them, and it’s a very large project, is the redevelopment of our website. And at the moment, the language used on our website is, it’s technical. One of the major change, one of the major improvements, is there’s going to be, the new website is going to be written in very accessible, plain language. We’re aiming for someone with a year level literacy of eight to 10. We’ve also just kicked off a forms redevelopment project that applies or that will be applying data and behavioural insights, so behavioural economic insights. To ensure that the regulatory burden associated with making these applications and that people are informed, as best as they possibly can be, are a part of the process. So we are looking at ways that we can improve our service delivery and we’re acting on them at the moment.
[Roberts] Well, thank you. That’s encouraging. Fundamentally though, the Fair Work Act is highly complex and it doesn’t matter how we dress it up in practical language, it’s still going to be complex. That makes it difficult for both employees and employers to know what they’re accountable for and what their entitlements are. I appreciate you raising that. Thank you. Last questions on just another topic here. Can you please undertake to inform on the status of the Award Modernisation process that you’re undertaking?
You’re referring to the Four Yearly Review of Modern Award are you Senator?
[Roberts] Yes.
Okay. Do you have any questions in particular about the review? It’s a very, very large piece of work.
[Roberts] Is it progressing on schedule?
It is. It’s very close to being finalised. There are a number of common issues and Ms. Luby can talk to that for today’s, but one of the major initiatives that’s still being progressed is the plain language writing or rewriting of a number of Awards that’ve got high, high world reliance. So those Awards that have got a lot of employees covered by them or relying on them to set out their terms and conditions.
[Roberts] So…
Ms. Luby, do you have anything else to add to that?
Certainly. Thanks, Mr. Furlong. Thanks Senator. So the Four Yearly Review has, as you know been going on for a number of years. In terms of the Award specific reviews, there’s only seven Awards that are outstanding of the 122 that we started with. There are five of those Awards that are undergoing what we’re referring to as a plain language review, which goes to the point you were just making, and Mr. Furlong was making, about trying to make the terminology less complex. The others are the Nurse’s Award which is probably, it’s very close to completion. We’re hoping it will be completed by the end of July. A final draught has been published of that Award. And it’s just out for comment to ensure that there are no technical or drafting issues that have been incorporated in it. And the final other Award is the Black Coal Mining Award, where there’s one issue in relation to the interaction between shift work and weekend work penalties and the casual loading for staff employees. There was a conference about that yesterday but I understand the parties couldn’t come to an agreed position, so there’s a further conference scheduled in a couple of weeks.
[Roberts] Okay
So they’re the Award specific issues and then there are a number of common issues across the Awards that have progressed. But again, there’s only a small number of those that are left of the vast number of reviews that were undertaken over the last six years.
[Roberts] So while I see it as tinkering, it is a good step for having modernisation and simplification of the language in particular. So everyone knows where they stand.
https://img.youtube.com/vi/3XfTHqGBUEY/0.jpg360480Senator Malcolm Robertshttps://www.malcolmrobertsqld.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/One-Nation-Logo1-300x150.pngSenator Malcolm Roberts2021-06-03 09:31:192021-06-03 09:31:29Fair Work Commission – Award Modernisation & Small Business
I had a debate with Joel Fitzgibbon last week about Industrial Relations and what One Nation has done to improve certainty and cut administrative burdens for small businesses.
Transcript
[Marcus Paul] All right now, this was something different this morning. We normally on a Thursdays, you know catch up with One Nation’s Malcolm Roberts. Now Malcolm has been targeted by Labor MP Joel Fitzgibbon. Joel, who sits on the back bench these days. Joel’s always stuck between a rock and a hard place. I think when you’ve got Labor, possibly going down a probably a far greener future, than what some would like. And there are many suggesting that Labor have forgotten about the grassroots of the party and that is looking after coal miners and workers. Anyway, the story, and I think it was in the Herald up there in Newcastle, “Miner shaft the hunter coal industry in uproar over One Nation backing the government’s controversial IR bills” Both the gentlemen in question are on the programme. Good morning to you. First of all, Joel.
[Joel Fitzgibbon] Good morning, Marcus
[Marcus] And Malcolm Roberts from One Nation morning Malcolm?
[Malcolm Roberts] Good day Marcus. Good morning.
[Marcus] All right. Now gentlemen.
[Malcolm] Good morning Joel
[Joel] Good morning Malcolm.
[Marcus] All right. Class action lawyers and the CFMEU are considering the possibility of a high court challenge to the gutted IR bill that passed through parliament on Monday with its clauses on casual employment. The only sections to survive. Now Joel to you first you’ve come out in the press and it’s been reported basically saying that Scott Morrison has no more reliable vote in the Senate. And that of One Nation’s Malcolm Roberts, you say it’s a slap in the face for coal miners in the Hunter. Joel?
[Joel] Well, that’s true Marcus and it’s not just Joel Fitzgibbon saying it. It’s the Coal Miners Union and it’s coal miners themselves, including Mr. Simon Turner, who Malcolm has been using as a very fine example of those who’ve been disadvantaged by the law as it stands but Malcolm has been using as a person. He says he’s been trying to help but Simon Turner himself today is in the financial review saying that he’s disgusted and feels betrayed by One Nation’s actions in the Senate in supporting this industrial relation bill which is not going to make it better for coal miners. It’s going to make it worse for our coal miners.
[Marcus] All right. Malcolm ,respond to that.
[Malcolm] Sure. The greens have no better and more reliable asset in the in the parliament than the labor party. And Joel is wearing the consequences of that because they’ve lost touch with the working workers all around the country, lost touch with small business. And what we’re doing here is we’re protecting workers. We’re protecting small business. Now, Simon Turner, I’ve had a wonderful relationship with him. He is a wonderful person. Yet I recognise he’s under enormous pressure. He went silent on us a few weeks ago. Silent on a lot of people in the Hunter, under a lot of pressure. We then kept working for him in the parliament and in public, and he was energised again. And we actually we actually drove a solution for him, a settlement that’s that’s that’s given him a substantial benefit.
[Marcus] I think we’ve lost. Hang on for a second Malcolm. I think we might’ve lost Joel there. We might’ve lost Joel. We’ll just go back to, is that you you still? No, we’ve lost them both. All right. For some reason, Justin we’ve lost them. So we’ll take a break and come back to that.
SM super network news, news, wake up, get up, Marcus Paul in the morning.
[Marcus] All right? It’s quarter to eight. My apologies to, to our listeners. So obviously I think Joel’s calling from the Hunter this morning and there’s obviously a lot of water in the area. I think we’ve got both gentlemen back. Joel, are you there?
[Joel] Yes I’m here Marcus
[Marcus] Perfect. And Malcolm you’re back.
[Malcolm] Yes, mate. Ready to go?
[Marcus] All right. So, I think we were halfway between what you were responding with Malcolm. So please go ahead.
[Malcolm] Yes. You know, it’s very important to understand that Simon Turner has been bashed around for six years by the CFMEU in the Hunter Valley. And I always say Hunter Valley CFMEU because the rest of the union is fine, but Simon tells me and he’s said it very emotionally and strongly. The Hunter Valley CFMEU is disgraceful. He dislikes Joel intensely because he’s written to Joel six times to help him with these problems. And I can get through the problems in a little while but six times never once has Joel responded. I’ve written to Joel personally in parliament and asked him to get involved, come and understand the issues, refuse to even acknowledge me. Plus Joel has now misrepresented this situation several times. I don’t know why he keeps hiding what the Hunter Valley CFMEU has done.
[Marcus] All right. What has the Hunter Valley CFMEU done? Malcolm
[Malcolm] Very simple. They’ve gutted mining in the Hunter Valley because first of all, the Hunter Valley, the award for the black coal mining industry does not include, it was signed in 2010, does not include casuals. Now the union, what they did they used to be a hirer of casuals. They used to be a Labor hire firm themselves the Hunter Valley CFMEU, they sold that, made a profit but they stayed in the business. And by made the enterprise agreements that cut out the award, cut out award provisions. They created a casual within the enterprise agreement. That’s the first thing they did. now because that went against the award. There was no casual conversion. The union itself created casuals. The union itself locked casuals into permanent casualization. And not only that, they undermined the pay of these casuals by creating a category that was 40% under…
[Marcus] All right.
[Malcolm] The same, the enterprise agreement unbacked by the owners on the same mine, same job, 40% less pay.
[Marcus] Okay. Joel, your response to that?
[Joel] Well, that’s just all rubbish. Marcus, why would I respond to Malcolm? Malcolm Roberts’ calls for me to work with him, when I know that he’s walking both sides of the street as proven with his vote in the Senate last week. And I did respond to Simon Turner and who, by the way he’s not a constituent of mine. That doesn’t matter because I’m here to help anyone that I can. But all this is very simple. The courts have ruled in both the skene case and confirmed, and the rossato case, that the mining companies have been doing the wrong thing by mine workers, paying people different pay rights for the same job. By using the usual use of, by using casualization. Now these court cases effectively representing the situation.
[Marcus] Hang on Malcolm, just let him finish.
[Joel] And now the decision and Malcolm Roberts voted for the bill which overturns effectively the court’s decision. It’s as simple as that Marcus.
[Marcus] All right. So just, just in a nutshell, in relation to what it is before the government, at the moment in relation to the industrial relations bill your main concerns in a nutshell, Joel please about why Malcolm has sided with the government on this.
[Joel] My main concern of course, is that after the union spent a lot of money representing coal miners in the courts. To fix this problem, Malcolm has now used his vote in the Senate to back a government bill which now effectively nullifies the decision of the court putting our coal miners back in the position where we started. And that’s a slap in the face for our coal miners. Not my words, the words of the coal mining union. And of course, Mr. Simon Turner, who Malcolm has purported to represent but now says he feels betrayed by Malcolm and One Nation.
[Marcus] All right Malcolm.
[Malcolm] Well, it’s very simple. The coal mining union in the Hunter Valley, actually undermined the workers award and the workers’ entitlements. They signed off on the enterprise agreement. Joel cannot run away from that. That is fact. They’ve done it repeatedly. 300, more than 300 enterprise agreements that the union has signed. That’s the first thing, the second thing is that the rossato case did not, is not going to be affected. Cause the decision is not going to be affected by this legislation that was passed last week with our support, what we’ve done. I made sure that we protected mine workers. That was the first thing I did. Then the second thing I did… we even called the class action lawyer who’s leading Simon’s class action to get his take on it. What we also did then was we, we understood that the legislation cannot cannot reverse the the written entitlements of miners at all. It can use an offset, which is, which is absolutely fair. We can’t have people being paid for entitlements and then get those same entitlements back. So that’s absolutely fair. And then you get the other thing that drove us was that small business is going to be gutted by this, because what will happen is, small businesses will have to pay twice for basic entitlements that are already protected in awards. Most of the awards in Australia, all but 12 have these provisions already in them.
[Marcus] All right. Joel?
[Joel] Well, what really disappoints me is that the Senator, the good Senator, seems to have suggested that the only reason Simon Turner the person he purports to represent has turned on him is because he’s been intimidated by the union. That’s a pretty, no that’d be charged. So I said that, your listeners either believe me, the union who represents the workers and Simon Turner who Malcolm purported to represent that now feels betrayed or they believe Senator Roberts. And I’m pretty confident Marcus your listeners will conclude that we are on the side of the workers. Malcolm Roberts has betrayed them and they should not trust him in the future.
[Marcus] You see, the big concern is that every new job could be casual. I mean, that was the main concern on the issue. What we’ll do is I’ll let both of you gentlemen have another couple of minutes each just to finish. So we’ll go first to you, Malcolm for your final comments.
[Malcolm] Well, they won’t betray miners because what’s actually happened is this bill that we supported with some amendments to protect workers further and protects small business further actually gives people a pathway to permanent employment. The union sold out the workers in the Hunter Valley because they eliminated any chance of that because they bodgied up an enterprise agreement in an award under an award that didn’t have a classification. So what means, what that means is that people under the EA are locked into lower pay rates than their work mates doing the same job next to them. Thanks to the union. They’re locked into being a permanent casual thanks to the union. And we also know that small business cannot afford the double dipping. So what we’ve, which is when a person gets paid for in lieu of his entitlements and then later claims those entitlements. All that’s happening here is that that is clarified now. So the small business can be protected. We’ve had many, many compliments from from small businesses, small business organisations because we have saved the day. We need some certainty here. We need some, some confidence back in business and back in and workers protections. And that’s what we’ve done. We’ve ensured workers are protected. We’ve put in extra provisions to make sure that we’ve also put in the bill, legislated in the bill is a 12 month review to see if there are any unintended consequences but we’ve also made detailed changes within that. And there’d be more coming out from us in a in a few weeks time, because we are going to be chasing BHP. We have chase BHP. We have chased Chandler McCloud. We’ve chased the Hunter Valley CFMEU and Joel is sat on his backside doing nothing. Stuart Bonds has been to Canberra more times with Simon Turner and with us and advocating for, for Simon in the in the parliament and in in my office than Joel has ever done.
[Marcus] All right. So Joel, to finish your points.
[Joel] Well, Malcolm can check the parliamentary hansard and my speeches in the parliament. Marcus I’ve been very active on this subject, but look I started by saying Malcolm’s been walking both sides of the street and listen to what he just said. He kept mentioning business business business. Now this is what he’s trying to do. He’s trying to stand, straddle this divide. The fact here is that a number of workers have signed enterprise agreements non-union enterprise agreements which we’re paying them less than the union members working alongside them, notwithstanding including Simon Turner. The fact that they weren’t union members the union took this to court to get it fixed because it believes it was unfair that people should be doing the same job and getting different. Pay rights. The court fixed the problem. The Morrison government didn’t like the outcomes. So they legislated to overrule the courts. And that bill on that bill used to overrule. The courts, Malcolm Turnbull put his hand. high, not Malcolm Turnbull sorry. Malcolm Roberts put his hand high in the air in the Australian Senate and said, yep. I’m with you Scott Morrison. And in doing so he did over the miners. And that’s what Simon Turner is saying in the Australian financial review today.
[Marcus] All right, gentlemen, thank you both for joining us. It’s been interesting. Let’s do this again sometime.
[Malcolm] Oh, Marcus, by the way the union signed the enterprise agreement.
[Marcus] All right, gentlemen. Thank you. Have a wonderful day. Joel Fitzgibbon., Hunter MP, Malcolm Roberts, Senator.
https://img.youtube.com/vi/kIip8UExT0o/maxresdefault.jpg7201280Senator Malcolm Robertshttps://www.malcolmrobertsqld.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/One-Nation-Logo1-300x150.pngSenator Malcolm Roberts2021-03-30 15:10:162021-03-30 15:10:24The Great IR Debate – 2SM with Marcus Paul and Joel Fitzgibbon
Small businesses are going under across the country because of the amount of red tape they have to get through to earn a dollar. I was proud to have removed some paperwork requirements for them with my amendments to the recent IR reforms but the Fair Work Act is still six inches thick.
How can we really expect smaller operators and employees to be across the mountain of complex laws that govern how we go to work? The Fair Work Act must be simplified. Small Businesses are the backbone of this country but they are starting to crack under the weight of red tape.
Transcript
[Chair] Senator , we’re gonna move on to Senator Roberts
[Man] I’m done.
[Chair] Senator Roberts.
[Senator Roberts] Thank you chair and thank you for attending today. This is the Fair Work Act. I’ll refer to it in a minute. The root of many complexities, what can be done to reduce industrial relations complexity for small business. And is there a better way for small business and for workers?
[Witness] We believe there’s great scope for simplification. My predecessors had quite a bit to say about that. And I think Senator O’Neill might’ve been referring to some work I did on that subject for the Fair Work Commission about how to make the regime work better for small businesses, his Honour Justice, Iain Ross asked for some views within the current law about how you would make it more small business friendly. So there’s quite a, quite a range of options there. The agency has done a piece of work on that and I’ve got some of the things around loaded rates and streamlining the enterprise bargaining process for businesses and workforces that are inclined to do that. There’s quite a number Senator and some reports around.
[Senator Roberts] I know your predecessor committed to taking part in, in simplifying industrial relations in the country. I had a lot of respect for your predecessors as senators around this table have said–
[Woman] Can I just clarify adviser?
[Man] Yes.
[Woman] Thank you, Yep.
[Witness] I presume that was what you were referring to earlier Senator. And that was with the Fair Work Commission.
[Senator Roberts] And I note the Japanese miracle after the Second World War, Peter, I’m sorry, W. Edwards Deming was introduced by Macafa.
[Witness] Yes, can’t measure what you can’t manage and can’t manage what he can’t measure I think was one of his phrases.
[Senator Roberts] Yes, but the key to Deming’s work was that instead of focusing on the level of production and tinkering with the process, focus on reducing variation and when people reduce variation in the process, the process becomes more efficient. And this introduces a whole lot of variation and destroys because of the complexity. So we need to get back to simplicity. I mean, it’s proven in every industry, so what else needs to be done to support small business and workers?
[Witness] We think there’s some scope to look at reg tech, we’d use some technology tools.
[Senator Roberts] Red tech?
[Witness] Regulatory technology to help businesses navigate the rules. It’s, it’s interesting that small business men and women can create, conceive and grow their own business but really feel they need expert advice to navigate that pile that’s in front of you. And it seems to be why, why does it need to be so hard? Why can’t it be more surefooted? So there’s been some ideas put forward around reg tech, helping with that simplification even having annexures or a stripped down version of awards for smaller enterprises. They’re the sorts of ideas that the agency has, has brought forward previously and some of which are in that report.
[Senator Roberts] It’s very difficult for workers to find their entitlements in here and know when they’re getting ripped off. This is harmful for workers. It’s led to a decline in union membership in this country, I believe. And it’s led to small businesses not knowing what they’re doing and being frightened all the time of breaking the law. I believe it’s led to large businesses, large companies being very poorly managed because they focus on rules rather than on the core workplace relationship between employer and employee. So I can’t see how this favours anyone. We’ve had senior officials of the largest unions in the country. We’ve had employer groups all saying that this needs to be tackled for the sake of Australian business, not just small business, but especially small business.
[Witness] Well our view Senator is if it’s easier to get it right, that’s in everybody’s interests.
[Senator Roberts] Especially the workers.
[Witness] Absolutely. It would help inoculate against employees under payment, if there’s ability of employers to be able to understand and make it easier to do the right thing and know what that is, we think that’s in everybody’s interest.
[Senator Roberts] And the other thing, another thing about this is that it focuses on trying to prevent the bad doing things. Whether it be poor workers or, you know bad workers or bad employers. I mentioned this to COSBOA’s head, Peter Strong.
[Witness] Yes.
[Senator Roberts] And he said, of course, what a wonderful idea, focus on the positives, to enable good workers and good employers to get on with severe punishments for those who break the law. So simplify the law, make it focused on enhancing the employer, employee relationship, and then punish anybody who goes against it, really severely. At the moment, this is a game for lawyers to just act out in courts and workers and small business are left in the dust because they haven’t got the deep pockets for lawyers. On the point of improving small businesses, what can be done to support medium sized businesses as well?
[Witness] Well, we think the proposition we’ve put forward is that if you can have a framework that’s small business friendly and built with smaller employers in mind, that’ll improve the prospects for larger businesses If you build it from the ground up was the argument that was put forward, rather than build for assuming there’s 10 people in a workplace relations team.
[Senator Roberts] So you’re coming back to the primacy of the workplace relationship.
[Witness] And keep that as understandable, as straightforward and simple, so it can be implemented and people can focus on the success of the enterprise that’s in everybody’s interest
[Senator Roberts] Now this is based on reinforcing the IR club, the lawyers, the consultants, the um–
[Witness] Yeah. I must confess in the report that Senator O’Neill mentioned, I did refer to the club that thrives in the complexity.
[Senator Roberts] So it needs to be, needs to be made for workers and employers.
[Witness] Yeah, I think so, and that people can confidently navigate it knowing what the right thing is and that’s in everybody’s interest.
[Witness 2] And, and.
[Witness] sorry, Senator.
[Witness 2] And just on the medium business side, our definition of what a small businesses is, is up to a hundred employees on an FTE basis. So we actually do get well into that sort of middle territory as well.
[Senator Roberts] And the Fair Work Act defines a small businesses as 15 or less full-time equivalent.
[Witness 2] It’s, that one’s different.
[Witness] I mean, we also had some ideas around the fair dismissal code, you know, addressing it, just making sure it was, it’s functioning as, as was understood to be its intention when it was introduced. And even some structural reforms where there’s, you know might be a small business division within the Fair Work Commission that has processes that are right sized for smaller workplaces. And perhaps the club is less necessary, less necessary to be involved. So, I mean they’re just some of the ideas that have come forward, both from the agency and referring to the report that said–
[Senator Roberts] Well the Industrial Relations Club is focused on perpetuating its power and control.
[Chair] Senator
[Senator Roberts] can I just make one comment about Kate Carnell please? She reached out to people, including us. She came with solutions, not problems and she was always proactive and she always was happy to listen and engage and meaningfully listen.
https://img.youtube.com/vi/NnxzW4ER42c/mqdefault.jpg180320Senator Malcolm Robertshttps://www.malcolmrobertsqld.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/One-Nation-Logo1-300x150.pngSenator Malcolm Roberts2021-03-30 09:33:332021-03-30 09:36:05How can small business operate with so much red tape?
