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CCP Office in Sydney? Nothing to See Here!

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This is the second Senate Estimates I have raised questions about Chinese Communist Party contact points (or Chinese overseas police stations) in Australia. We know they exist and that this issue has been investigated and confirmed by mainstream media.

I asked Home Affairs, the department responsible for Australia’s security, why there is a CCP contact point office in Sydney. Home Affairs avoided answering – this from the department responsible for national security policy. What hope have we got? This is the same department that helps META censor accurate social media posts from Australians, yet it won’t discuss CCP activity within Australia.

I was told Home Affairs was not the correct agency to ask these questions and was directed to the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO). The head of ASIO said he has no knowledge of a contact point in Sydney and referred me to the Australian Federal Police (AFP), who likewise stated that they had no evidence or information of this.

There must be a reason why they refuse to discuss this and are maintaining the secret.

Transcript below.

Transcript below.

Transcripts

Home Affairs

Senator ROBERTS: Yes. Given the general concern about the Chinese Communist Party’s global involvement in overseas affairs, in many countries’ affairs, why is there a Chinese contact point in Sydney? The
contact point is a Chinese Communist Party-staffed office set up in a country outside China.

Mr Smyth: I would refer you to the Department of Foreign Affairs for matters in relation to that?

Senator ROBERTS: Well, you’re in charge of security.

Mr Smyth: I look after policy in relation to issues. But issues that go to bilateral relations with foreign governments or countries or their activities is a responsibility of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.

Senator ROBERTS: I’m after program 1.2, national security and resilience, so I’ll continue.

Senator Watt: With respect, Senator Roberts, you can’t just ask any question that includes those words in it. There are particular departments that are better suited to answering certain questions, and I think DFAT is probably the best department to answer the questions you’ve just asked.

Senator ROBERTS: I would doubt that, Senator Watt, because this is a security issue.

Senator Watt: Sure, but we want to make sure that you get the very best possible answers. You’ve already heard from the officials that DFAT is probably best placed, and they’ll be up on Thursday.

Senator ROBERTS: The AFP deputy commissioner investigations, Reece Kershaw, addressed this matter in a Senate estimates hearing in November 2022. He said that he did not believe the Sydney contact point was active, without going into further detail. So these questions are being asked to update the current situation. Is there still a CCP supported contact point in Sydney? That’s a yes or no answer. It doesn’t need to upset anyone.

CHAIR: Senator Roberts, the AFP will be appearing a little bit later today. If you’ve got questions for them or are following up from answers that they’ve given at previous estimates, they will be available for you to ask those questions then.

Senator ROBERTS: I’m stunned that the Department of Home Affairs cannot face questions about security?

Senator Watt: That’s not a fair way to put it.

Senator ROBERTS: It is true.

Senator Watt: That’s your take on it, Senator Roberts. We’ve tried to assist you by—

Senator ROBERTS: Let the people of Australia decide on what their take is.

Senator Watt: We’ve tried to assist you by telling you the two different groups you could put those questions to. We’re all going to be here all week and there are opportunities for you to ask those questions.

Senator ROBERTS: What’s the role of Home Affairs with regard to national security and resilience? Minister?

Senator Watt: I’ll suggest that the deputy secretary in charge of that area answers your question, Senator Roberts.

Mr Smyth: In relation to resilience, we have a task force that was established in November 2022, and that’s to better position Australia for what we see as a significant set of risks and challenges that it faces across the full spectrum of national and human induced crises. The task force leads on national resilience policy and strategy. That ensures that the Commonwealth has the necessary policy, legislation and capability to manage what is really an increasingly complex and cascading set of concurrent national crises in the current geostrategic and geopolitical environment. We provide advice to government around issues in relation to national security. We look after national security policy. We look after legislation for intelligence services. We look after countering foreign interference policy, terrorism policy et cetera.

Senator ROBERTS: Counter and foreign interference policy—that’s what I’m talking about.

Mr Smyth: And we do that in collaboration with other portfolio agencies.

Senator ROBERTS: I’d like to know your role in that collaboration.

Mr Smyth: My role is as the National Counter Foreign Interference Coordinator.

Senator ROBERTS: What would be your role in knowing whether or not there’s a CCP-supported contact point in Sydney?

Mr Smyth: I’d have to take that question on notice. I think the evidence that was given to you by Commissioner Kershaw was that that is not an active—

Senator ROBERTS: I’d like to know what it is now.

Ms Foster: I think that the difference perhaps is that Mr Smyth is responsible for the overall policy and coordination, but operational issues will typically fall within the purview of the operational agency which is why the Australian Federal Police is best placed to answer questions about current operations.

Senator ROBERTS: Wonderful! Before you start getting into policy—unlike climate change, where there’s no data, despite driving that policy—what is the purpose of the Chinese Communist Party contact point in Sydney? What is its purpose?

Mr Smyth: I would refer you to the AFP in relation to the evidence that has been previously given by Commissioner Kershaw.

Senator ROBERTS: I want to know what it is now. That was 12 months ago.

Ms Foster: Yes, Senator, and that’s an operational issue, which Senator Kershaw is well placed to answer, and he will be appearing later tonight.

Senator ROBERTS: I want to know what your take on it is, because we’re trusting you with our security.

Ms Foster: I’ve just made a distinction between our role in providing the overall policy framework and coordination and the role of individual operational agencies to manage specific operational issues. I think it’s evident from the fact that the evidence last time came from Commissioner Kershaw that this is an operational issue which the AFP is best placed to deal with.

Senator ROBERTS: What’s your policy for handling the Chinese Communist Party contact points, and what’s the basis of that policy?

Mr Smyth: The issues that relate to that, I think, are best referred to the Counter Foreign Interference Taskforce, which is an ASIO and AFP led taskforce that deals with operational matters in relation to foreign interference activity on Australian soil.

Senator ROBERTS: I’ll acknowledge that you’re talking about operations with other people. I want to know what the basis for your policy is in regard to the Chinese Communist Party contact points in Sydney, because initially they weren’t existing and then we find out they do.

Mr Smyth: Where foreign governments seek to interfere in the democratic process of Australia, we take an interest, but those issues relate more to operational matters for taskforce agencies. In relation to the contact point that you’re referring to, I’d have to take on notice any specific information that we have that resides in this portfolio.

Senator ROBERTS: Okay. That’s two questions you’ve taken on notice. Are there Chinese police officers working out of the premises? You can take that on notice. And are—

CHAIR: Senator Roberts!

Mr Smyth: That would be an operational matter for the taskforce members and also a matter potentially for the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.

Ms Foster: Senator, we’re not seeking to be unhelpful. It’s just not helpful to you if we take something on notice which we’re then going to refer to someone else.

Senator ROBERTS: Are there any concerns of the security agencies about potential breaches of Australian national sovereignty?

Ms Foster: That would have to be addressed to the security agencies.

Senator Watt: ASIO will be on later today as well, Senator Roberts. There are opportunities for you to ask these questions. It’s just that they’ve got to go to the people who can answer them.

Senator ROBERTS: I’d would like to know that Home Affairs knows something about this. Should Chinese people living in Australia be concerned? You’re in charge of security.

Mr Smyth: Again, I’ll refer you to previous answers that we’ve given.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you.

CHAIR: Senator Roberts, are those all the questions you have?

Senator ROBERTS: Thanks, Chair.

Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO)

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr Burgess and your staff, for being here. I asked a question of Home Affairs, and they said to come here and also AFP. Given the general concern about Chinese Communist Party global involvement in overseas affairs, why is there a Chinese contact point in Sydney? A contact point, I’m sure you know, is a Chinese Communist Party staffed office set up in a country outside China.

Mr Burgess: I’m not aware of a Chinese contact point in this country other than the official consulate and embassy presence.

Senator ROBERTS: The Australian Federal Police deputy commissioner of investigations, Reece Kershaw, addressed this matter in a Senate estimates hearing in November 2022. He said he did not believe the Sydney contact point was active, without going into further details. These questions I’m going to ask are to update the current situation. You’re not aware of it, so what is the purpose of a CCP contact point?

Mr Burgess: I can’t comment about the purpose of something I’m not aware of. What I will say is my agency does consider and look for signs of foreign interference, and it’s more the behaviour we’re focused on in terms of anyone in this country that might be here doing something which is against our national interest, represents a threat to security and is not publicly declared.

Senator ROBERTS: Would it be something you’d investigate if it wasn’t a threat necessarily to Australian security but a threat to the security of Chinese citizens or former Chinese citizens?

Mr Burgess: Anyone in this country gets our protection.

Senator ROBERTS: Good. As I said, Reece Kershaw addressed the matter and said he didn’t believe it was active, without going into further detail. You can’t tell me how long it’s been in operation? You can’t tell me, a year later, whether there are Chinese police officers working out of the premises?

Mr Burgess: I would stand by my judgement that there is not a Chinese contact point in this country.

Senator ROBERTS: Are there concerns at the security agencies about potential breaches of Australian national sovereignty?

Mr Burgess: Every day in my line of business.

Senator ROBERTS: Do you surveil any threats from the CCP in this country that could affect Chinese residents or Taiwanese residents?

Mr Burgess: I do not talk about operational matters publicly.

Australian Federal Police

CHAIR: Thanks, Senator Scarr. Against my better judgement, Senator Roberts has got two minutes. That probably equates to two questions, and we thank you for your brevity.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for appearing tonight. The 60 Minutes program broadcast on 18 June this year—an investigative story—showed interviews with several Australian citizens who had been intimidated by Chinese authorities and showed proof of the existence of at least one Chinese overseas police station in suburban Sydney. What actions have been taken by the AFP with whom the information was shared?

Mr McCartney: I think we’ve been asked this question a number of times during past Senate estimates and I think we’ve been consistent. In terms of the construct of a Chinese police station operating in Australia, I also heard the Director-General of ASIO state today that we’ve got no evidence or information on that. But, having said that, is Chinese foreign interference a threat? Yes, it is, and we continue to work very proactively with ASIO and other agencies in relation to that space.

Senator ROBERTS: This is my last question. The Australian Federal Police deputy commissioner of investigations, Reece Kershaw, addressed this matter in Senate estimates hearings in November 2022, I
understand. He said he did not believe the Sydney contact point was active, without going into further detail. These questions are asked to update the current situation.

Mr Kershaw: Senator, I’m the Commissioner of the AFP. I think you called me ‘deputy’. You’ve demoted me!

Senator ROBERTS: I have a lot of respect for the AFP; believe me. And I’m pleased you can see it with a sense of humour.

Mr Kershaw: So what was the end of a question?

Senator ROBERTS: Reece Kershaw said that the Sydney contact point was active, without going into further detail. I was going to ask more questions.

Mr McCartney: Senator, I think it was actually me who said that at the last Senate estimates. I would go back to my first answer: there’s no information that indicates that a Chinese police station is operating in Sydney, and that’s a position that’s supported by ASIO.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you very much, Chair.

CHAIR: Thanks, Senator Roberts. We appreciate you keeping to your word. That’s all the questions we have for the Australian Federal Police. Thank you, Commissioner.

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The Wuhan “Conspiracy Theory” – Not a conspiracy any more

During the COVID response I was temporarily banned from social media for pointing out that COVID could have emerged from the Wuhan lab.

This fact is now widely acknowledged, even by the former directer of the US Centre for Disease Control. Who’s spreading misinformation now?

Transcript

In light of acting minister Senator Chisholm’s comments when he mentioned COVID, I wish to note and draw to the Senate’s attention that the bill that was passed this morning, the Therapeutic Goods Amendment (2022 Measures No. 1) Bill 2022, combined with this bill, makes it impossible to dodge vaccine mandates. 

I want to draw the attention of the Senate to two points. The first is an article by the Washington correspondent for the Australian, Adam Creighton. The article is headlined ‘”US helped fund Covid-19″: ex CDC director Robert Redfield’. Dr Robert Redfield is a former director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in the United States. It’s supposedly an authoritative body. The article says: Dr Redfield … said … during a House Select Coronavirus Pandemic Subcommittee hearing on “Investigating the Origins of COVID-19” that the deadly coronavirus “more likely was the result of an accidental lab leak”— 

Whoops! Those conspiracy theorists were right! The article says: 

The former head of the US Centers for Disease Control has told Congress the US government likely helped fund the development of Sars-Cov2, which he believed leaked from a Chinese lab in late 2019, ultimately killing more than 6 million people globally. 

Asked by Republican congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis whether “American tax dollars funded the gain of function research that created this virus”, Dr Redfield, who was CDC director between 2018 and 2021, replied “I think it did”. 

This is serious stuff. The article goes on to say: “As a clinical virologist I felt it was not scientifically plausible that this virus went from a bat to humans and became one of the most infectious viruses we have for humans … 

His testimony came a week after revelations the FBI and the US Department of Energy had assessed the lab leak theory — once dubbed a ‘conspiracy theory’ — where have I heard that before — to be the most likely explanation for the origin of the pandemic. 

Dr Redfield, who was appointed by the Trump administration … said he had been side-lined early on by Dr Fauci — where have I heard his name before — and NIH head Dr Francis Collins — where have I heard her name before — who, Dr Redfield said, wanted to “create a narrative” the virus emerged naturally. 

It’s rubbish. The article continues: The two hours of testimony and questioning by Democrat and Republican representatives of four expert witnesses on Wednesday … centred around private emails from top US scientists to Dr Fauci in late January, which suggested the new virus ‘looked engineered’ — Senator Babet — and what may have prompted their subsequent about face. 

On February 4th, four of those scientists among a group of 11, who had convened on a confidential conference call organised by Dr Fauci, from which Dr Redfield — head of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention — was excluded, claimed the lab leak idea was not feasible in a draft academic paper that became the “Proximal Origin of Sars-Cov2”, published in March. 

“I didn’t know there was a February 1 conference call until the Freedom of Information came out with the emails and I was quite upset as the CDC director that I was excluded,” Dr Redfield said. 

One of the witnesses, Nicholas Wade, both former editor of Nature and senior New York Times science writer, said the media had been “used” to establish the natural origin theory. 

Like this government has been used. The article continues: He also pointed out the scientists — remember, this is a Democrat — who seemingly changed their mind over the course of a few days later received a US$9 million grant from Dr Fauci’s NIAID in May 2020. 

This is serious stuff. The article continues: Another witness, Dr Jamie Metzl, said the idea the virus emerged from wet markets was never the most logical explanation. 

“I’m a lifelong Democrat. I consider myself a progressive person, but … I couldn’t find the justification for the strong arguments, calling people like me, investigating looking into pandemic origins in good faith, conspiracy theorists”. 

This smells. The TGA bill, combined with this bill, enables injection mandates. Let’s have a think about who could be the beneficiaries here. On Tuesday I discussed the fact that, over the last 15 years, 47 market-leading drugs have aged out of patent, costing pharmaceutical companies $30 billion a year in lost sales, including drugs that made up 42 per cent of Pfizer’s drug revenue and 62 per cent of AstraZeneca’s. This patent cliff is set to get worse, with another 15 leading drugs—nine of them among the world’s top-20 best-selling drugs—due to expire this decade. Pfizer will lose another $15 billion in annual sales. The only way to replace so much revenue is with a whole new class of drug: mRNA—not tested, thought to be dangerous, killing people in this country and globally. 

We’ve now seen that drug on the market, through mandates that the federal government drove.

The former Prime Minister drove the injection mandates in this country.

He bought the injections. He indemnified the states. He gave them to the states and gave them access to the health data that enabled the states to control the mandates.

We are looking at something being set up here that is heinous. 

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Spy agency ASIO not aware of secret Sydney Communist China police station

Reports last year indicated that the China has set up police stations across the world including one in Sydney.

Chinese authorities have said the stations, sometimes called “contact points”, provide services to citizens, such as renewing national identification cards, passports and drivers licences, by using facial recognition technology.

But human rights groups fear overseas police offices could also be used to target dissidents abroad or compel people to return to China where they could face potentially politicised trials.

Despite this potential National Security Breach, our spy agency ASIO doesn’t appear worried and claims to not know anything about it. China must be laughing at our government.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for attending today. Mr Burgess, you said in your opening statement that

Australia is the target of sophisticated and persistent espionage and foreign interference activities from a range of hostile foreign intelligence services. I take it they use a range of means of doing so.

Mr Burgess: Correct.

Senator ROBERTS: Is there a Chinese Communist Party supported contact point in Sydney?

Mr Burgess: I’m not aware of that.

Senator ROBERTS: It’s been reported in the media, I understand.

Mr Burgess: I see many things in the media, but I let the data that we have available to us determine that. I wouldn’t comment on operational matters, but I’m not aware of that in the context of that media reporting.

Senator ROBERTS: So you’re not aware of how long it’s been in operation or what its purpose is?

Mr Burgess: You’re assuming it’s true.

Senator ROBERTS: Yes.

Mr Burgess: We will investigate things that are associated with acts of foreign interference, but I won’t bring colour to them in a public hearing.

Senator ROBERTS: Are there Chinese police officers working out of premises in Sydney?

Mr Burgess: Not that I’m aware of.

Senator ROBERTS: Are their operations of interest to our security agencies?

Mr Burgess: If anyone here were engaged in acts of espionage or foreign interference, that would be of concern and something that we would investigate.

Senator ROBERTS: What about potential breaches of Australian national sovereignty?

Mr Burgess: Again, my agency will investigate anything that’s a threat to security.

Senator ROBERTS: What about Chinese citizens or Chinese people living here in Australia? Should they be concerned? You would protect them, even though they may not be Australian citizens.

Mr Burgess: Anyone in this country is free to be here, assuming they’re on a valid visa, of course, or they’re a citizen or permanent residence, and they’re of no concern to us unless they’re engaged in matters of prejudicial security, in which case we would show an interest in them.

Senator ROBERTS: Individual security as well as national security?

Mr Burgess: Threats to security are what ASIO worries about.

Senator ROBERTS: You’re not aware of people operating from this contact point, so you wouldn’t know whether or not they have any contact with or influence on Australian Chinese residents or Chinese visa holders.

Mr Burgess: Again, I don’t comment on specific operational matters, but I will say this because I’ve said this publicly before: the threat of espionage and foreign interference is a real threat in this country. It is our principal security concern. It comes from a range of countries, and I think it’s unhelpful for me to call out specific countries and in particular when we talk about the vast range of diaspora communities in this country, the members of those communities are not the problem. It’s the foreign government and the foreign intelligence services that will be the focus for me and my agency.

Senator ROBERTS: The Chinese Communist Party itself has belted our country economically. What Australian overview of agencies that operate in this country is there for premises like the supported contact point in Sydney?

Mr Burgess: Again, I don’t comment on specific matters, but if we have a need to investigate things that may be of concern in relation to security, things that could be used as platforms for espionage or foreign interference, I can assure you my agency will be on it and investigate it. And I can assure you we had a very productive year last year, removing espionage and foreign interference problems from this country.

Senator ROBERTS: And you may or may not be able to tell us about those operations, depending upon the circumstances. Is that correct?

Mr Burgess: I wouldn’t talk about them publicly in detail.

Senator ROBERTS: Let’s move on to a series of very short questions on a topic that was underway in last Senate estimates in this room, as I was asking the questions, but it was denied. That was the ISIS brides that were brought back. What are the costs to Australia of bringing these women and children to Australia?

Mr Burgess: The repatriation was not a matter for ASIO. We gave advice on the individuals, but beyond that you’d have to pass that question to others.

Senator ROBERTS: What security measures are to be taken to keep Australian community members safe, because these people have been part of some radical terrorist groups and associated with them?

Mr Burgess: The only comment I’d make there is that ASIO gave security advice to government and, in particular, gave security assessments on all the individuals that returned. That was our job.

Senator ROBERTS: What was that again? You assessed them?

Mr Burgess: We did security assessments on returning individuals, and they returned, and that’s okay.

Senator ROBERTS: Are any of these women currently wives or partners or sisters of terrorists?

Mr Burgess: I won’t go into specific matters.

Senator ROBERTS: Are they genuine refugees?

Mr Burgess: They’re Australian citizens who have returned home.

Senator ROBERTS: Given their recent social circumstances, are any of these people going to need

deradicalization programs?

Mr Burgess: Again, I wouldn’t comment on that publicly, Senator.

Senator ROBERTS: How many of the women have been charged with terrorism related offences?

Mr Burgess: I’m not law enforcement. I’m aware of one charge.

Senator ROBERTS: One.

Mr Burgess: You should speak to the AFP about that.

Senator ROBERTS: Okay.

CHAIR: Senator Roberts, if it assists you, we do have the AFP a little bit later today. They can answer some of those questions for you.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, Chair. Given that most of the husbands and children’s fathers have been

killed by Western soldiers, how traumatised and angry were they when you assessed them?

Mr Burgess: I can’t speak for how they’re feeling.

Senator ROBERTS: No, but you would be aware, surely, of their potential threat?

Mr Burgess: As I said, we did security assessments on all the individuals, and anyone who falls into that

category that believes that violence is the answer would be subject to my agency’s inquiry and investigation.

Senator ROBERTS: Is ongoing support to be provided, and what is it?

Mr Burgess: Again, that’s not a matter for my organisation, other than to say that we will continue to watch anyone that is a threat to security, but I’m not making any comment on these individuals.

Senator ROBERTS: You may not be able to answer this, but I’m guessing you would know the answer

because it would form part of your assessment of terrorism threat. Given the children’s exposure to violence, either as victims or perpetrators, what are the plans for their assimilation, and did you make any comments about what was needed?

Mr Burgess: Again, that question is best put to others in Home Affairs and more broadly.

Senator ROBERTS: Does your agency work in providing a diagnosis and recommendations?

Mr Burgess: On individuals or children?

Senator ROBERTS: On treatment of people to make sure that they don’t violate our standards of behaviour.

Mr Burgess: No, we’re not involved in that. We talk about the security threats people might face, and others worry about what treatments, if any, might be needed.

Senator ROBERTS: So, you do interact. If you can see a potential threat, you pass it on to someone. You

don’t just—

Mr Burgess: We’re part of a broader apparatus that helps counterterrorism in this country, yes.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. I see Mr Pezzullo nodding in agreement. Have the communities where these people are to be housed been fully consulted? I guess that’s for other people to comment.

Mr Burgess: It’s not a question for me, Senator.

Senator ROBERTS: Does your assessment of the threat include any consideration of family members here in Australia whose friends or family members have been killed by ISIS terrorists? Do you consult with the community in which they’re going to be placed?

Mr Burgess: No, we’re not involved in that consultation of where they get placed.

Senator ROBERTS: Will the families be housed together or apart?

Mr Burgess: Again, I can’t answer that question.

Senator ROBERTS: I was thinking more from a security point of view.

Mr Burgess: No, that’s irrelevant. They’re Australian citizens; they’re entitled to be where they want to be

unless there’s some legal condition on them. But I’m not law enforcement, so I’m not part of that.

Senator ROBERTS: So, would you be monitoring them more closely if they’re living close together in an enclave?

Mr Burgess: We will monitor anyone that we deem to be a threat to security.

Senator ROBERTS: So, it wouldn’t be part of your recommendations to keep them separate in this country?

Mr Burgess: No, we were not in that space.

Senator ROBERTS: I just have a final question, Chair, on violence. Does ‘violence’ include destroying

artworks, interrupting everyday Australians and destroying roadworks? I note that left-wing extremism in the 20th century killed 120 million people. I presume you monitor all types of extremism?

Mr Burgess: We’ll monitor any individuals that have an ideology that thinks violence is the answer.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you very much and thank you for your clear statements opposing violence.

CHAIR: Thanks, Senator Roberts.

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Wagga Wagga Councillor sticks up for Aussies

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This morning I interviewed Paul Funnell who is a councillor in Wagga Wagga NSW.

Paul put to the council that they should cut ties with their Chinese sister-city Kunmin because the “Chinese Communist Government that delights in lies, subterfuge and coverups” has brought “death and destruction across the world with COVID-19”.

The motion passed.

Since then, Paul has been attacked by the usual control freaks labelling him racist and xenophobic.

Here is his story

Transcript

[Malcolm Roberts] Hi. I’m with Paul Funnell on Skype, and Paul is a sheep and irrigation farmer from southern New South Wales around Wagga Wagga. He’s also a councillor on the Wagga Wagga council. And last week he moved a motion to repeal or to end the sister city relationship that Wagga Wagga has with Kunming in China. You didn’t expect it to pass, but it did.

[Paul Funnell] No, I didn’t, Malcolm. It was about putting it up out of principle because I don’t want to be in a relationship with the CCP, which is what the Kunming provincial government actually is, it is the CCP. And with the coverups, etc., with COVID-19, I just felt it was time, enough’s enough. And that’s why I stood my ground. But of course it got up, right to my surprise.

[Malcolm Roberts] So here’s an everyday Aussie standing up for his beliefs, getting it through the council, and you’re just doing what you think is right. Now, you have got nothing against the Chinese people. In fact, you’re getting a lot of support from Chinese people including those in Communist China. But what your beef is is that you don’t want to be associated with the Communist Party of China that’s ruling that country by force, and you just want to dissociate yourself from it, not continue to condone them.

[Paul Funnell] That’s correct, Malcolm. This is nothing to do with the Chinese people. In fact, I’m trying to help the Chinese people. And that’s what this is all about. It’s not just a totalitarian regime, it is the most brutal regime in world history. And we are tacit in approving what they do by remaining in this soft infiltration. Because this is what they do through the sister city programmes. And eventually, you have to draw a line in the sand. And that’s what I’ve done.

[Malcolm Roberts] Well, good on you, mate. And now, you were expecting a lot of pushback, but surprisingly you got it through. Then the pushback came with the left and the control freaks in our society.

[Paul Funnell] Correct. And I thought it might upset a few people of the left-leaning persuasion, and the nice people. And there’s nothing wrong with being nice, but they don’t understand what they’re dealing with here. They don’t realise that we’re actually in bed with a brutal communist regime. So yes, I thought we might get a little bit of pushback around here in Wagga, but it absolutely exploded. It has gone global.

[Malcolm Roberts] But it’s been in support of you, not against you.

[Paul Funnell] In support of me, yes. I am getting support from all over the world. Obviously a lot of the Chinese nationals and Chinese Australians and people from all over. Some of them, however, only contact me directly through my text or email privately, because, as they say, they still have family living in China and they’re afraid. And of course, this speaks volumes to what this whole situation has brought out. But if that doesn’t make us stop and think, “We don’t want to be in this relationship,” and if we can’t stand up. And they are so pleased. So many of them have said, the majority, they’re so pleased that they finally found a politician, which, of course, local government is certainly far from being a politician, has actually stood up to help them. So it’s just been overwhelming. But of course the vitriol and the hatred that has come from the opposition is just absolutely astounding. But that speaks volumes.

[Malcolm Roberts] Here in Australia, Paul?

[Paul Funnell] Here in Australia, absolutely. I’ve received many threats, as in death threats. I can produce those documents. And it’s quite disheartening, actually, to think that people could be so vitriolic and so interested or disinterested in wanting to stand up for people and for what is right. But unlike in China, I will defend their right to do so, because we have a democracy where they have that choice.

[Malcolm Roberts] So you’re standing up on behalf of your constituents and on behalf of your own principles, and what you’ve been surprised by is the lack of interest from the mainstream media in this country, the vitriolic response and attacks on you personally, just by voicing your concerns, which got through council. Now you’re expecting it to be rescinded tomorrow, Wednesday, at the shire council meeting, correct?

[Paul Funnell] Correct. The mayor has called an extraordinary meeting because, as he said, he’s appalled. He thinks we’ve done irreparable damage, and there’s an absolute pile-on. But of course all that’s done is built my resolve to show, because he wants to apologise to the CPP for causing any harm, to the extent where the council general, I mean, this has drawn the ire of the council general of the Chinese embassy in Sydney, where he put out a media release last week. And in it, he actually states that my actions and I should be restrained. I mean, doesn’t that speak volumes? So we have drawn the ire of the Chinese consulate. This has has gone global. It is being reported in China and all over the world. And it’s interesting that the ire actually proves my point, as this is what we’re dealing with.

[Malcolm Roberts] And what’s happening is you’re getting a lot of support from mainstream Australians, everyday Aussies. You’re getting a lot of support from Chinese people all around the world. You’re getting interest from all around the world. And yet, the locals, media, won’t pay any attention and you’re getting attacked by some people who oppose what you’re doing. They just won’t leave you alone.

[Paul Funnell] No, that’s right. It runs from about six o’clock in the morning to one o’clock the following morning every day. but that’s fine. What they don’t realise is in, probably being a typical Aussie or whatever, I’ll just dig my heels in. I’m a reasonable person. I will defend their right to having a differing opinion to me. I will absolutely defend their right. Interestingly, the local media here immediately around Wagga, I can only say, must be left-leaning, because they’re giving an absolute dump and pile-on, even to the editorials, to say that my moral judgement should be assessed and I should be turfed out. I mean, it’s quite mind-boggling. Professors from our wonderful academic institutes are saying, it’s in the Daily Advertiser today, actually stating that Australia and America are also complicit in this COVID-19. I mean, it’s just astounding that this is the way our media has gone.

[Malcolm Roberts] Yeah, it’s crazy. Last week, I came out and made a tweet. Two weeks ago, I made a tweet that went around the world. And it’s got enormous support from just about every continent, saying that we need to hold the Chinese Communist Party responsible for the COVID virus, because they suppressed the news of it, they shut down doctors who wanted to talk about it publicly, to raise public awareness. The World Health Organisation came in and supported that shutting it down, and the World Health Organisation and China have colluded to make sure that the West didn’t know what was going on. That’s cost us more lives, delayed our response. We’re having a pandemic because of something that was released in China and because of suppression of that in China. And what you’re saying is you want truth, and just to wrap up, you’re saying we should end the sister city relationship between Wagga Wagga and the Kunming area because of the Chinese Communist Party’s role and rule over Kunming. That’s what you’re against.

[Paul Funnell] That is absolutely what I’m against. This is the same municipal government that actually has, it’s documented, in current times, of torture camps, of abuse against their own people. That is who we are in the relationship with, not the good people of Kunming. It’s the regime we’re in the relationship. That regime is the CCP, who has allowed this unleashing of this COVID-19, which has absolutely devastated world economies. Hundreds of thousands have died. Millions are infected. It’s going to take generations to pay back the debt. And everyone wants to turn around and walk everywhere else, but yet remain in our city council wants to harangue me and turn around and say, “Oh, no, it’s all nice. “We want to remain in a relationship with these people.” You’ve got to be kidding me.

[Malcolm Roberts] To be in a relationship, it has to be mutually respectful. And when they’re talking about cutting you off or suppressing you, what was the word?

[Paul Funnell] Restrain.

[Malcolm Roberts] Restraining you. Then that’s hardly mutually respectful, because you’re a citizen of a foreign country and their consulate wants to restrain you for that. Now, as I understand it, a lot of people have now contacted the Wagga Wagga council and are wanting this to continue, not to be rescinded tomorrow.

[Paul Funnell] That’s correct. There’s been enormous amount– The pendulum has swung the other way, actually. There’s been dozens and dozens of emails going through to all councillors. And there’s hard, factual evidence that’s being put through as to what we’re dealing with. So this will be on their conscience. This will be their decision. And all I want is an open and transparent and a fair relationship with any governing body anywhere in the world. But if we can’t have that, we cannot be complicit and give tacit approval and say, “Oh, we want to do our economic up here but we’re not going to look at what’s going over there.” There comes a point in time. I believe this is the time. And I urge everyone to stand up. I urge councils everywhere, people of all levels.

[Malcolm Roberts] And you’re getting a lot of support from the Chinese people themselves under Communist rule, also around the world, who are outside of China. And in Australia, local Chinese people who you admire and respect, and you’re trying to help them as well.

[Paul Funnell] That’s what I’m trying to do. I want to help the people. I want to be in a relationship with the people. I do not and will not be in a relationship with a brutal regime that has unleashed this on the world, and we know that that is a fact.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you very much, Paul.

[Paul Funnell] My pleasure, Malcolm. Thank you for taking the time to speak with me.

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