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Telstra | Optus | TPG Telecom

Transcript

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  Thank you all for appearing today and thank you for your submissions. Thank you also for bringing engineers, not just government public relations people—not being a slide on the ladder. Senators come from a variety of backgrounds, but none of us, I believe, are equipped to deal with all of the very diverse range of issues, and the complexity of issues, that come before us, so sometimes we can be ignorant, including of this issue. I will just put that upfront. We can also be snowed by answers to questions because of our lack of technical expertise. But one thing I’ve learnt and really appreciate is that, through that camera, there are many, many people who are experts on the topic and they don’t hesitate to call me and say, ‘You were fobbed off there.’ So we’ll be back.  

I thought this was just about regional issues like regional access, safety, productivity and environment. I’ve learnt it’s much, much more. I also acknowledge some of the examples that you’ve put out. You’ve got a very big challenge with Australian demographics, languages and diverse technology. I’ve also got to disclose of conflict of interest. I have an iPhone from Apple. I use Telstra in my home and business. I also want to make clear that that has got nothing to do with my questions. I’m happy with Telstra, to some extent—to a large extent—but I just want to fulfil my responsibilities to constituents. That’s all I am after.  

I want to get some nuts-and-bolts questions out of the way first. You may have partially answered this first question. How many devices in use now are aligned on the 3G network to make or receive calls or emergency calls? Could you break it down into retail, wholesale and industrial applications. If you haven’t got that to hand I can understand. You can just take it on notice. 

Ms Rowe:  We do. Gerard can answer that for you now. 

Mr Tracey:  I’ve got the numbers. Based on handsets—the four categories—I can give you our consumer volume, our business number, our enterprise number and our Belong service provider number. That gives a total for Telstra. I can give you our wholesale for MVNOs, and the total, which was as of Friday last week. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  If you could give us that— 

Mr Tracey:  I can give you that. Would you like me to read— 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  And also separate it into calls and emergency calls. 

Mr Tracey:  This is the number of devices. So there’s a key difference. Not all devices make calls all the time. What we have is records of devices that have connected to our network. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Okay. 

Mr Tracey:  They are the numbers we’ve got associated with that. I can read the table out. If we want 3G-only handsets, it’s 26,000 for our consumer, 3,000 for business, 4,000 for enterprise. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  How many from retail consumer? 

Mr Tracey:  Twenty-six thousand. That’s a total across Telstra of 33,000. Our MVNOs—or our wholesale providers—is 6,000, which gives us the total of 40,000 3G-only devices as of last week. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you. What about Optus? 

Mr Sheridan:  We do have the breakdown, but we don’t have it in front of us. We can take it on notice, but we can reiterate the total numbers that I think we provided earlier. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  If you could provide the breakdown on notice. TPG? 

Mr Mitchell:  To reiterate what we said before, on the same category—the total across all of TPG Telecom and our MVNOs for the 3G-only devices is 228. The number of 4G devices without voice-over-LTE capabilities is just below 8,000. I’ll provide all of this notice so you’ve got the exact numbers.  

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Okay. Thank you. 

Mr Mitchell:  The number of devices we suspect cannot make a 4G voice-over-LTE emergency call is about 30,100. I’m just trying to add up three columns on the fly here as well. That’s split between 30,014 on TPG Telecom and another just over 100 on our MVNO partners. There is a cohort where we’re still seeking to understand the device capability, and that is around 16,500. We’re still trying to determine whether those can make an emergency call on the 4G VoLTE system. I’ll provide those numbers in a table for you. Those are all handset numbers. On top of that, we’ve also got about 1,329 things like wearables and other devices that aren’t handsets. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you. I’ll come to them. How many roaming devices are reliant on the 3G network to make or receive roaming calls or emergency calls? 

Mr Tracey:  From a Telstra perspective, I don’t have the number of roaming devices, but what I will talk through is what we have done and what we are doing from a— 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Is it possible to get the number of roaming devices? You can take it on notice if you don’t already have it. 

Mr Tracey:  Yes. But, from a network provisioning perspective, international roaming requires a relationship between our network and the international network provider. We have implemented a proxy arrangement such that an international roamer can come into our network and use our 4G network—with a capable device, obviously—but they still have a 3G arrangement with our international roaming provider. So we have implemented a methodology so that those international roaming customers will be able to use our network regardless of what the arrangement is with international roaming. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  But they have to have a 4G device? 

Mr Tracey:  They do need to have a 4G device. 

Mr Sheridan:  We’d also like to take your question on notice in respect of the number of roaming devices. On the technical matter, I’ll hand over to Michael. 

Mr Reynolds:  Similar to Telstra, we obviously have arrangements and partnerships with overseas carriers. On our Optus network, we obviously have a roaming service, including 4G. So, similarly, customers that are coming into country do need a 4G device to roam onto our network when the 3G network shuts down. 

Mr Mitchell:  Similarly, we’ll have to take that on notice, because obviously the number of travellers on roaming devices jumps around from day to day. As has been said, those international partners may well have agreements with any number of us at this table, so devices may well jump around between networks while the traveller is here. So there may be some double counting in the numbers you get back. I’ll hand to Gary Chant in our Brisbane office just to make sure that there isn’t any information additional to that answer. 

Mr Chant:  No. I think we’re in line with Telstra and Optus. The number will vary depending on the international travellers, so you’ll get a snapshot in time, but it will vary a lot. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you. In the last 12 months, how many calls to triple 0 were placed over the 3G network, and how many daily? 

Ms Rowe:  We’d have to take that question on notice. 

Mr Sheridan:  It’s the same for us. We’d have to take that on notice 

Mr Mitchell:  Again, we’ll take that on notice. But I think it’s important to put out the context for why a call can end up on a 3G bearer into triple 0. There are a range of networks that are available to a handset at the moment, and essentially in an emergency situation it will pick up the strongest of signals and try to make a successful call on that bearer. So, whilst we’ll give you some numbers on how many calls have gone into triple 0 on 3G, it will overstate the size of the problem quite significantly, because, if for whatever reason the customer is in a strong 3G area, the phone, without a 3G network, would have quite happily made a 4G emergency call. So I’m trying to give you some context for why the answer you’re going to get back may look a particular way, not giving you a true sense of the problem. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  So it chose 3G because the 3G signal was stronger? 

Mr Mitchell:  That’s right. There are also things like orders of networks in phones, so it may well be that it’s ordered to try and pick up a 3G signal and make that call on that emergency system first. So there are a whole range of reasons for why calls may well come into an emergency system via the 3G network, beyond the issue that you’re highlighting. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you. How many 4G and 5G devices in use currently rely on the 3G network to make calls as they lack 4G VoLTE calling supports with the networks? 

Ms Rowe:  Our number is 9,000, but it’s coming down. 

Mr Sheridan:  Our number was 25,611. 

Mr Mitchell:  And mine, as stated before, was 7,978. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you. What percentage and number of devices being used on each network support VoLTE roaming? 

Mr Tracey:  It’s the same. It’s about the device capability, so, if the device is 4G capable, it supports 4G roaming. 

Mr Sheridan:  Yes, that would be the same. 

Mr Mitchell:  I’ll just confirm with Mr Chant that there’s no difference for us. 

Mr Chant:  That’s correct. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  How many industrial, Internet of Things or machine-to-machine devices—such as energy meters, emergency lift phones and vehicles—use the 3G network for voice or data? 

Mr Tracey:  From a Telstra perspective, if we refer to 3G-capable IoT devices such as water meters and electricity meters, today there are 399,000 across all of our customer base. If we look at smartwatches—the very early versions that don’t support the low-band 4G, so that’s our 700-megahertz ones—we have 63,000. For wireless broadband or tablets, we have 45,000. 

Mr Wright:  Data devices break down into a variety of categories. I’ll give you the overall total, and we can take the specific split on notice. But it’s about 100,000, and these are predominantly in an enterprise context. It could range from— 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Small business? 

Mr Wright:  Or large businesses as well. It could range, for example, from a data dongle or data in a tablet or data in a payment terminal through to IoT devices for monitoring, telemetry et cetera. But we can provide that breakdown. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you. 

Mr Mitchell:  As our network’s closed, obviously you’d imagine our numbers are quite a lot smaller, and we’ve done all of the heavy lifting in terms of working directly with our medical device customers and our IoT customers to make sure that that transition has already occurred. There are 1,329 devices, such as wearables, that are still on the network. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  How many medical alarms—you’ve just given the answer, Mr Mitchell. How many medical alarms, fall detection devices or similar health devices or safety devices are in use using the 3G network? 

Mr Tracey:  We can’t provide that breakdown specifically, because we have no relationship with the customers. Our customer receives the medical alert. It’s outside that. But it’ll be a subset of the numbers that I’ve already provided. 

Mr Wright:  Senator, just zooming back, we recognise that medical devices, as you’ve highlighted, are one of several categories of what we internally term high-risk devices. Lifts are another one that’s been quoted as well, as well as payment terminals, services in medical or community institutions and so on. Similar to Telstra, we ourselves don’t provide those end services, but our customers are the businesses that do. What we have provided those businesses with is specific identification and quantification of the number of known devices that are impacted. Where there is a high likelihood of there being a high-risk device, we work hand in hand with that business customer to track them down. At the moment, we have about 44—I’ll need to double-check, but I think it’s about 44—business customers that are on that high-risk register of ours. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  And they may have hundreds or thousands each. 

Mr Wright:  It varies. I can provide the information on notice. But just for the benefit of this committee, to give a sense of the size, we have a limited number. For medical devices, I think there are fewer than 10 enterprise customers that we have relationships with where they provide devices of that sort. But we can provide more specific details on that to you. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you. Will unlocked devices previously sold with telco-specific firmware branding—which I understand support VoLTE calling with the respective network—work with all other Australian 4G VoLTE calling networks? 

Mr Tracey:  Yes. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  So yours would work on all the others? 

Mr Tracey:  Yes. If it’s VoLTE capable and you port your SIM card to another network— 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  So you’ve got to change the SIM card to do it? 

Mr Tracey:  Correct. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  So if someone wants to make an emergency call— 

Mr Tracey:  Sorry. A VoLTE-capable— 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  There are two scenarios, I guess, from what you’re saying. 

Mr Tracey:  There are two scenarios. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  There’s normal use, where you’ve got to change the SIM card so they won’t work on other networks, and there’s the emergency call, which will work on other networks. 

Mr Tracey:  Correct. Unless you change your SIM card, you can’t make a standard voice call. You only make voice calls on your carrier—Telstra on Telstra, Optus on Optus, TPG on TPG—but for emergency calling you don’t even need a SIM card. The device will connect to an available network and make triple 0 calls.  

​​Senator ROBERTS:  I might come back to that later, in regard to what you just answered. Optus?  

Mr Reynolds:  Where you have a phone with a version of software that will allow the SIM card that’s placed inside it to download the relevant operator configuration, you will be able to make VoLTE calls across the different networks. There are some early devices, when VoLTE was first launched, where certain software could be configured for the specific operator that it was arranged for.  

​​Senator ROBERTS:  That’s a specific telco.  

Mr Reynolds:  Yes, and this is the earlier devices. Where we are now, circa 2018 was largely when the Android base moved to a more standardised way of operating. Inserting the SIM card for Android phones, and the same for Apple, the VoLTE configuration is downloaded to that handset and you can work on different networks.  

​​Senator ROBERTS:  So you don’t have to change the phone; the phone changes itself, updates itself. 

Mr Reynolds:  Correct. 

Mr Mitchell:  That is the same situation for TPG Telecom and Vodafone. Gary Chant, do you have anything further to add?  

Mr Chant:  Yes. Just echoing what the colleague at Optus said, we have software bundles for different handsets and different carriers, but essentially the only real difference plays out when it’s the much older handsets. The newer handsets are consistent across the board.  

​​Senator ROBERTS:  I have another question but I will put it on notice. I’m being asked to make this my last question. What are the new device sales numbers compared to this time last year?  

Mr Mitchell:  Can I suggest, for all of us, that would be rather commercially sensitive. I’m happy for TPG Telecom to provide that to you— 

Senator STERLE:  What’s commercially sensitive about it? We don’t want to know who bought them; we just want to know— 

Mr Mitchell:  What my sales numbers are?  

Senator STERLE:  What’s sensitive about it?  

CHAIR:  You’re all public companies, aren’t you? 

Senator STERLE:  Come on, don’t— 

Mr Mitchell:  I’m happy to provide that confidentially to the committee on notice.  

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  Okay, the committee will take— 

CHAIR:  Just before we do that, why don’t we go to all of them. I presume we’re happy to take it on notice, given the detailed information, but we’ll ask Optus and Telstra: are you happy to provide that information?  

Mr Sheridan:  I don’t have the information in front of me and we’re happy to provide that information. 

CHAIR:  On notice? 

Mr Sheridan:  On notice.  

Ms Rowe:  On notice. 

CHAIR:  Okay. Mr Mitchell, you might need to come back to us, on notice, on why it needs to be confidential. I don’t understand that myself, but if you could take that on notice and come back to us.  

Mr Mitchell:  Certainly.  

CHAIR:  Thank you.  

​​Senator ROBERTS:  I’ll put the other questions on notice.

  

Royal Flying Doctor Service of Australia

Transcript

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you both for appearing. I want to express my appreciation for the RFDS for what you do. We’ve felt very safe when we’re travelling outback, especially in Central Australia and South-West Queensland. It’s just amazing. It’s like having a security blanket. So thank you. I also want to acknowledge your fabulous testimony this morning. It has been very precise and concise but also quite thorough. I’m stunned that you have 81 aircraft and 37,000 air medical emergencies a year. 

I’d like to know your impression of the mobile network operators. You just said you’re looking for greater consultation. Have you found them capable? Have you found them informative? Have you found them to be genuine when they’re coming to listen to you? Have they listened to you? 

Mr Klose:  I think that’s a great question. We feel that we’re a small company to them. I feel that it has a very common sense of how large business would base its priority and focus depending on the revenue it’s generating. We feel that our voice isn’t as strong in these organisations even though we may be covering the largest area of any customer they may have. The other concern we have is that, as RFDS works with communities on health care, we also work with communities. We also become a discussion and consultation arm out there, explaining to other communities, whether it’s the person who owns the Pink Roadhouse in Oodnadatta or someone else, ‘Are you aware that 3G is going?’ Most of them go, ‘No, we haven’t heard.’ 

I’m thinking our role as RFDS is not to be a spokesman for the telco companies. Our role is really health care. But what are the telco companies doing to let these outback communities know that their fridge is no longer going to be monitored? In any area there, if you’re not aware of it or you’ve taken it for granted, it’s going to change on you. These are the people who are going to deal with the issues. If you’ve got a problem in the outback, you go to the pub, the roadhouse or the petrol station to complain. These are the people I’d be talking to to make sure they are aware of what’s going on out there. From going out there myself, I have the feeling that they’re completely unaware that this is happening. 

Ms Gale:  That’s consistent, and that need around community information has been provided to this inquiry in a number of submissions. I’d add to Ryan’s point that we know it’s a big country, as our service footprint shows. We’re talking about small populations in very geographically dispersed areas. It’s challenging to do things like community consultation, community engagement, information campaigns and all those kinds of things. As we are on a range of other matters, we are always happy to work with government and other stakeholders and partners. As Ryan said, he is talking to so many people locally, and there can be a way to think about some of those information awareness types of efforts in an innovative way as well. That’s something that, when it comes to the transition, is a complex idea for many people and will require certain steps to be taken. We recognise the challenge of getting that information out there, but we are also very keen and happy to work with anyone we need to, to assist in that objective. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  I can identify with what you’re saying, Mr Klose, having been to the Pink Roadhouse and having limped into William Creek with tyre problems and having left Marree and had an accident—a rollover. It’s something that can’t be quantified so easily purely in terms of visits; it’s much more life-saving than that. You mentioned Starlink. Has that got the possibility to eliminate mobile network operators? 

Mr Klose:  Yes. The risk on Starlink was that there was only one, but we are seeing the next generation come through from Amazon’s Kuiper, which is meant to be twice as quick as Starlink. It will come to Australia in about 18 months, which will give us another option to Elon Musk’s Starlink. We are now working with outback towns to bring fast internet, which has not been done before, using traditional telco technology. 

Just to give the committee an idea: we’re able to bring to William Creek, for example—there may be 12 people who live there, or 15 on their residency thing. However, we know that can move up; Lake Eyre rolls into 200 or whatever. We’ve been able to roll out fast internet through the pub across the street, all through there, at a set-up cost of only $150,000—that is for the town and for visitors who come in—and then at an ongoing cost that’s probably close to $3,000 a month. That’s been done in conjunction with the SA government, to drive that. That’s us innovating, saying that the 4G and the 3G networks have their limitations. But what does low-lying satellite bring? It will now open up. 

If I can give the committee an idea: I went there with a portable Starlink, opened it up in front of the pub and then connected about six or seven people to Netflix, and everyone was watching streaming Netflix for the first time; they’d never seen it. There were seven people watching it off that device. There’s no way you’d be able to do that stuff now off any of those networks out there. To that other point, when I heard 4G is going to be extended to the same distance as 3G: that means 4G, which may have been able to have 10 or 20 devices connecting to it—you just give them 10 devices and then you’ll lose your signal. The telcos cannot solve this problem by just extending their towers. It loses the capacity, and the use of it just does not operate the same. 

We live in a digital economy. These outback towns deserve the right to digital and the benefits that come in health care, education, small business, social and all of that. That’s where the RFDS, to Lauren’s point, is innovating. We want to innovate with these communities so we can then take advantage of that and deliver health care on top of digital, so we can now give true 24/7 blood pressure checks and cardiac checks. Say you’ve just come back, or we’ve repatriated you, from the hospital after major surgery. We can watch you 24/7 by checking in on you, and these monitors are working. Some of these things were never possible or were very difficult in that area, but we’re increasing that. I know it’s to the side of it, but to your point: it’d be great for governments to lead and say, ‘I understand we’ve always approached the same problem the same way for the last 20 years in this area here, but what does the new innovation provide outback Australia, with low-lying satellite, which is already seeing this rollout, and is there a new way for us to deliver stability of these services?’ 

RFDS has been on this journey for two years. We have 26 clinics now because 3G sort of forced our hand on this to move. You go into these towns in there and they are now fully connected. Patient records can easily come from My Health Record. We can exchange data and images of a scan of a broken leg between us and an Adelaide, Darwin or WA hospital because the data links are big enough now. We’re sharing health information the same way that we take it for granted in the cities. That’s what we’re doing with Starlink, and I think it’s an exciting time for outback Australia. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you for that, Mr Klose; I found that really interesting and helpful. You may or may not be aware of Project Iron Boomerang. 

Mr Klose:  No. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  It will be a railway line across Australia, maybe supplemented by shipping around the south of Australia, linking Port Hedland in the west with Abbot Point in the east, having steel mills at both ends. We’ve had a bipartisan approach to this. Senator Sterle has voiced his support for it, as has the coalition. It will put a rail link across the north and across Central Australia, which will bring communications and open it up for commerce. 

Mr Klose:  Fantastic. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  The status of that at the moment is that it has gone through two inquiries in the Senate and it’s now up to the proposers to refine their management structure and get on with it. 

Mr Klose:  That’s great to hear. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  You’ve told me the cost burden to the RFDS for the 3G is $150,000. 

Mr Klose:  Yes. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Relative to budget, how significant is that? It’s a large amount of money. 

Mr Klose:  It’s about $200,000 for our set-up out there. We do take advantage of the RFDS that we have our engineers jump on planes—there’s a patient sitting in there as well—and they keep very quiet next to the pilot. Let’s just say they’ve got free transport to get out there. It’s about $200,000. That is to not only purchase the Starlinks, but to erect them up there and get that monitoring set up so that we can see them. And then there’s an ongoing monthly fee for the use of Starlink that we pay out there. It’s about $250 a month per device that we use on there for every Starlink that we put out there. 

We’ve got Starlinks spread across a lot of Queensland, the Northern Territory, SA, WA and New South Wales on remote clinics. We’ve moved very quickly on that. All of those areas had been problematic on data. What do I mean by that? They would still use paper records for health care in those places. It didn’t matter what we had; they could not connect. Now we’ve got them connected and we’ve seen how that can elevate patient safety and clinician safety as well. They have confidence that they can actually operate with the skills that they know. 

For the other areas of Starlink into towns, we have this notion for RFDS that we want people to continue their health care outside of an RFDS clinic, because we limit Starlink just to our clinics. This project with the SA government I was speaking about is putting fast internet in the town and so when you leave the clinic you know your steps or your blood pressure or your monitoring or your telehealth services can still happen in your home. And they can happen at one in the morning when something has occurred. You can contact the RFDS and be connected to one of our doctors immediately. 

Those kinds of things with Starlink are opening, so we continue to grow Starlink as a rollout. But the direct response to 3G forced our hand in areas and we’ve had to move a little bit faster. It’s new money; it’s not money we’re replacing out there. This is all new money; the 200,000K was new money on top of our budget. What were our spending budgets in this area? To give you an idea, most of the technology is old so there’s no real infrastructure being spent in those areas. It just continues 4G and high satellite—I think they use Sky Muster in there, which is challenging. So outback communities have never really had the opportunities on any of the telco services out there in this area. Starlink has opened it. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  So you may be pioneering something that will come from the bush back into the cities? 

Mr Klose:  We hope so; yes! Aged-care homes will use this technology. Hospitals in the homes, which are moving now, is very similar to the situation you have in the bush where you could be completely isolated and you need to have trusted internet around you because of the vulnerability of these people. The aged-care sector is likely to learn from what the RFDS has done in outback communities in this area and may take some of these learnings into aged-care homes and people ageing in their homes in a safer environment with better technology. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Correct me if I’m wrong, Mr Klose, but you said $150,000 is the cost to the RFDS for complying with the changes to getting rid of 3G. Is that correct? 

Mr Klose:  Yes. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  So $150,000 is not far short of the $200,000 to do something far better. 

Mr Klose:  Correct. I don’t know if this is the right forum, but we would like to think that not only is there a change in 3G but, if there was investment made available to invest infrastructure into the outback—not the old infrastructure where there was billions in telcos with the 4Gs and 5Gs, but if we focussed on Starlink, which actually is a lot lower cost, higher speed and more reliable—you’ve got them in the sky above you—then that would make a lot more sense for outback Australia. And we have another technology player coming on the scene, so Starlink isn’t the only option. There’s another one coming called Kuiper, which is Amazon’s, and that’s coming to Australia. This is really the modernisation for fast internet for the outback, and also for homes that use the internet. It’s faster than NBN. 

Ms Gale:  The point of costs and those kinds of things, Ryan has given a really wonderful example there of a partnership approach to particular communities in South Australia. That kind of approach, where we can leverage both footprint and some of the expertise—obviously, we’re a not-for-profit and anything that we are needing to spend in addition to our regular costs means our services that are potentially impacted. We’ve obviously done a huge amount of work, which is not necessarily for this committee today, about the gaps that still exist just in accessing health care in rural and remote places. That kind of approach of how we can partner with others and do things most efficiently and to make sure that there is benefit for a range of players in those areas when things can be so high in terms of the cost of doing business is absolutely critical. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  You’ve done the RFDS proud this morning, both of you. Thank you so much. 

Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry

Transcript

​​Senator ROBERTS:  You mentioned the second aspect which was lack of awareness. The first one was that they weren’t aware of 3G being shut down. Of those who were or are aware, they’re not aware that devices will be impacted and some of them have many devices. 

Dr Trembath:  Yes. For example, surveyors are a good example of this, and I believe they came and spoke to you yesterday. The equipment they’re using has been designed for 3G. It’s only just started to move across to 4G, so it’s possible to get 4G equipment now, but that’s new. If you’ve only just bought 3G enabled equipment and now you’re having to replace that at approximately $15,000 per item, then obviously that’s going to be quite a significant move.  

The Surveying Association have been reaching out really proactively to their members and also to the telcos wanting to have those conversations. They’ve been quite concerned and expressed the concern to us that despite the efforts they have been conducting, that knowledge and awareness is still not broadly disseminated amongst their community. We’re finding the same thing with our members. Despite our best efforts, and we are communicating broadly to our members, the knowledge of this is simply not that widespread yet.  

​​Senator ROBERTS:  The surveyors also mentioned the impact on housing construction costs and the inflation as a result of it, because they will have to charge more for their services. Also, some businesses have got a massive cost burden. Have you reached out to the mobile network operators to consult with them and to invite them in?  

Dr Trembath:  Yes, we’ve had conversations with Telstra specifically. We would certainly welcome conversations with the others, and we probably will reach out to discuss with some of the other telcos after this hearing. We focused our attention on Telstra first because initially, as you’d know, Telstra was going to be shutting down a month ago. But, yes, we have had conversations with Telstra specifically. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  How did you find the conversation? Was it genuine? Did they care? 

Dr Trembath:  I wouldn’t want to say whether or not it was genuine, but the kinds of conversations were more aligned to, ‘But we’re already doing the things. We’re putting out the communications.’  

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  So it was one way, and they were telling you what was going on rather than listening?  

Dr Trembath:  That may be a way to characterise it. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  They’ve only delayed the imposition by a month or two, and I don’t think they’ve really been listening at all to many people across the country. What are your specific concerns? Is it that people are going to find out in a couple of months that they’re high and dry? 

Dr Trembath:  Yes. Take the example I gave in my opening statement around fire alarm systems. If those fire alarm systems are on the 3G network, the screen on that system is going to start showing an error. It’s just going to say that it’s not working. If you’re not aware that the 3G network is shutting down, what kind of problem-solving are you going to do there? Who do you ask? You’re probably likely to call your fire alarm system manufacturer to say, ‘There’s a problem with my alarm system.’ Hopefully they know. If they know, then great; they can then pass that information on. Hopefully there hasn’t been a fire in the interim, before they noticed that the system’s gone down. But what if the manufacturer of the fire alarm system isn’t aware that the 3G system’s down? You can imagine the scenario where in fact— 

ACTING CHAIR:  [inaudible] We were told this morning this is—I’m sorry to interrupt. 

Dr Trembath:  No, please. 

ACTING CHAIR:  We asked questions along these lines, about a lift in airports and backups, and quite clearly the telcos—I strongly urge you, Dr Trembath, to go back and have a listen to that. I can understand small-business people are out there pulling their hair out, and single operators and that sort of stuff, but I’m really struggling with your saying that a lot of your members are saying they’re not aware of it.  

​​Senator ROBERTS:  I think what Dr Trembath is saying is that some are not aware of it happening and some are not aware of the consequences for their business. 

ACTING CHAIR:  No, I understand the consequences; I understand that. But there’s a lot of ‘if someone has that fire alarm, do the fire alarm people know’. Do you know what I mean? It’s filtering right down. Anyway, I know what I’m trying to say. I’ll come back. But I did interrupt you, Senator Roberts. Please keep going.  

​​Senator ROBERTS:  No, I’m done, thanks. 

Australian Communications and Media Authority

Transcript

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you for appearing in person today. Are you aware of James Parker’s submission and his testimony yesterday? 

Mr Brealey:  Yes. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  What’s your opinion of it? He raises many issues. 

Mr Brealey:  He does. It’s a comprehensive submission, and his testimony was quite comprehensive as well. On some of those issues, it is quite a complicated picture. On things like portability of handsets and ability of handsets to make calls on different networks, mobile number portability has been in place in Australia for quite a long time. We haven’t seen evidence from customers, in terms of complaints, about an inability to port successfully with their devices. 

A couple of other issues were raised. There was mention of the 900-megahertz-replanning work that the ACMA had done. That evidence was given in the context of whether or not we thought there had been sufficient lead time for devices to switch to VoLTE. I think the context of that inquiry was quite different. It was about clearing that band. At that time, I think, there were blocks of 8.4 and 8.2 megahertz of spectrum which needed to be cleared so that we could have five-megahertz blocks so that there would be a more efficient allocation to the providers and, potentially, continuous spectrum over the bands. That conversation was really about a bit of a debate between the carriers about the timing on when that clearance should happen, rather than the kinds of issues we’re talking about today with the closure of 3G and the ability of handsets to make emergency calls on 3G. There was also a mention, I think, that the firmware in some of these devices could be changed out or upgraded quite easily. There was an example given of a service, the name of which escapes me. 

Mr Major:  Jio. 

Mr Brealey:  Jio. I think we had a look at Jio, and it’s not quite that simple. For Jio, you also have to buy an additional piece of hardware. It’s not just a matter of changing the firmware in that device. Like I say, it’s a very comprehensive submission. There are some good points. My point is really that it is quite complicated and perhaps not as straightforward. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  On that point, he said it was complicated but he said that the industry is aware of the root cause of the problem and is not willing to fix it. He mentioned a variety of reasons—more handset sales, more telco sales, more revenue for associated industry; they want to recoup their 5G investment; it’s more commercially beneficial to them to sell new phones than updates to existing devices et cetera. He says they want to protect their market, and interests around preserving their market control and reducing costs meant 4G standardisation failed. He says it’s in the telco’s interests and the handsets’ interests to do the swap, to shut down 3G, even though we’re not ready for it. 

Mr Brealey:  I can’t comment on behalf of the carriers, of course, but I know that there has been talk about refarming spectrum from 3G to 4G and 5G for a number of years because of capacity constraints around the spectrum they have and just upgrading the services and the networks that they’re providing to the consumers. That’s been the main driver, as far as I understand it. As far as I know, they haven’t been talking publicly about closing down 3G in order to drive handset sales. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  They wouldn’t dare talk about it if that were the case. 

Mr Brealey:  We’ve not heard anything of that nature at all. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  What about the industry’s failure—I know you said it was complicated—to address the root causes in terms of the serious 4G compatibility issues? He says there is a solution. He says the French, the British and possibly—from memory of his submission—the South Africans are saying, ‘We will address this in coming years and we will delay the shutdown of 3G and 2G.’ Britain, for example, is not shutting down 3G and 2G. France is delaying it until at least 2028. James Parker points out that the solution, in his opinion, is to sort out those issues first rather than just shutting down 3G. 

Mr Brealey:  I think we heard testimony from the carriers that there are other international jurisdictions that are closing down. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  We’ve got to be careful there, because my understanding of their wording was that China and Japan, which have very high population density, have shut down but the others were in the process of shutting down. They mentioned France as being one of them, and France has said nothing before 2028. So I don’t know how accurate their statement was. 

Mr Brealey:  From our perspective, of course, we have no capacity or jurisdiction over whether or not networks are closed down by carriers. That’s entirely a decision for the provider. We have no capacity to direct them to close down or not close down a particular network. That’s a decision for the commercial provider and not something that we can really have any sort of influence over. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  What has been ACMA’s involvement in this? When were you first notified? When were you first consulted? Have you been consulted? Where are you up to now with them? 

Mr Brealey:  I might defer to my colleague. 

Ms Rainsford:  If I particularly focus on the issue that has been the main topic of interest this morning, around the device compatibility with the networks once the 3G shuts down, we had a meeting with MNOs in, I think, December last year where they first alerted us to their understanding of that compatibility issue. There was a follow-up meeting in February this year where they shared with us, at that point, their understanding of the number of devices affected. In terms of your broader question about the ACMA’s role here, a key role for us as the telco regulator is assessing whether or not actions of telcos are compliant with the existing law. We’ve obviously had a look at what they’re proposing to do and the relevant regulation to assess whether there were any concerns about their compliance. That’s an ongoing piece. But we’ve certainly not identified any concerns that what they’re doing is not consistent with the current regulatory framework.  

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Did you listen to the testimony this morning from Optus?  

Ms Rainsford:  Yes, I was here.  

​​Senator ROBERTS:  My understanding is that they were not aware of the size of the impact until February this year, but they’d flagged the shutdown in 2023. I am then questioning either their motive or their competence. Flagging a shutdown and then finding out later it’s much more complicated than they thought, doesn’t seem to be good management.  

Ms Rainsford:  I can’t really comment on the internal operations of Optus.  

​​Senator ROBERTS:  I’m not asking you to. 

Ms Rainsford:  Certainly, the factual basis there is consistent with our understanding, and we’ve flagged, as had the other carriers earlier, the timing of their proposed shutdown. It’s our understanding that they, really, clarified by February this year the likely impact around this device compatibility issue.  

​​Senator ROBERTS:  What I’m getting to is they flagged the shutdown in 2023 but it wasn’t until February that they were aware of the size of the impact. Does that concern you at all, that Optus seems to be making a decision and then assessing whether or not it’s a competent decision? 

Ms Rainsford:  Probably, what I can say there is the ACMA, since we’ve become aware of the problem, has expressed its concern to all of the carriers about the importance of the work they are doing to make sure that their customers are aware both of the timing and the possible impacts of the 3G closure, and they are providing a range of supports to assist their customers to take action, should they need to. That includes, via the chair of the ACMA, writing to the CEOs of the MNOs some months ago to share our concerns, consistent with those expressed by the Minister for Communications. To that extent, yes, we are concerned if there are customers.  

As we’ve heard this morning, the telcos are very focused on, particularly, what I would call the more vulnerable groups of the community, which involve a number of different circumstances, potentially, and making sure that they are a real focus, in terms of assisting them to have a smooth transition through so that they will have the same access to services and, particularly, access to triple 0 services post the shutdown.  

​​Senator ROBERTS:  What power does ACMA have to intervene?  

Ms Rainsford:  As Mr Brealey said, we don’t have powers that would allow us to direct telcos to keep their networks going. In terms of the regulation, that’s a matter for the commercial providers to make decisions on. There’s nothing within our remit that would allow us to require them to do anything that way.  

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Mr Parker seemed to know what he was talking about. He said that most overseas countries are not doing anything with 3G shutdown until they resolve compatibility issues. He cited France, the United Kingdom and South Africa as examples. He suggested holding providers to a government specified standard for a number of compatible devices and minimal coverage levels in regional or remote areas, to protect people. And he suggested all networks support open market standards and allow any phone to work for emergency calling and regional areas.  

Overseas countries have become aware of the problem and are now not switching off 2G or 3G until near the end of the decade. France is 2028, for example, at least. What scope is there for ACMA to protect customers in this country?  

Ms Rainsford:  As I said, under the current laws, the ACMA doesn’t have any powers to address those types of matters. It’s certainly on our radar to have a look at whether or not there is some change needed in the regulatory environment that would help to mitigate these types of risks in the future, and to that end we’re having a look at and reviewing a particular instrument with a view to whether that needs to evolve over time—in particular, that’s the emergency call service determination. But currently there are no powers that sit with the ACMA to direct the carriers to keep their 3G networks operational at this point. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  When did ACMA first become aware of the telcos’ desire to shut down 3G—not just the compatibility issues but the 3G itself? 

Mr Major:  Before my time. 

Ms Rainsford:  Yes. I think it’s fair to say—we’re the telco regulator; we monitor what telcos do. I would expect that, within the organisation, we would be aware of the proposals to shut the networks down at the respective times the telcos notified. For Telstra, that’s five years ago, and it’s obviously a bit later for Optus and TPG. As I said, that’s before the time of most of us at the ACMA. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Mr Brealey, I think you said the government owns the 3G spectrum—sorry, the taxpayer owns it; the people of Australia own it. 

Mr Brealey:  The telcos are granted access to that spectrum to provide services on the basis of licences that they purchase from the government. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  On behalf of the taxpayer. 

Mr Brealey:  Yes. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  So this really is a taxpayer government matter. You’re reallocating the spectrum. 

Mr Brealey:  The spectrum goes to those carriers via an option process, usually, but there can be direct allocations in different circumstances. That spectrum is provided to those carriers. They purchase it in a competitive process and then they roll out the networks that best suit their commercial priorities. How they use it then is up to them, within the broad requirements of the licence that they’ve purchased. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you. 

Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman

Transcript

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you for appearing today, in person no less. Taking the third paragraph from your submission, I want to put on the record and talk about that in terms of small business awareness. You said: 

We have heard from stakeholders that vital equipment and software can still rely on 3G networks, including those relating to record-keeping, accounts, bookings, payroll, telephones, EFTPOS, security systems, cameras, asset-tracking tools, surveying instruments, water and environmental monitors, medical alerts and many of the wireless operating systems on farms— 

and fire alarms, as we’ve heard today. 

Mr Billson:  And security systems and point-of-sale technology. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  Some of this equipment can be expensive and must be sourced from overseas companies with extended waiting lists. We heard that yesterday from the surveyors at Cooma. You also go on to say: 

Additionally, some 4G-enabled devices, including emergency alert systems, have elements or functions that are powered by 3G— 

which we’ve heard repeatedly. Then you say: 

Users may be unaware of these components until they stop working. 

Could you elaborate on that, because I happen to agree with you? People don’t know the complexity of what’s working in their businesses these days. 

Mr Billson:  What we have observed is businesses, small and family businesses, using capability where there is a communications link but unaware that it may be a 3G link, so the focus on the equipment’s functionality might not trigger, ‘Oh, there’s a communications dimension to this.’ You’ve touched on some of those in that rather eloquent submission. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Very. 

Mr Billson:  That’s what we were quite concerned about. In our role of trying to advocate and draw attention to that concern and encouraging small and family businesses to turn their mind to this, given it’s not a handset, a phone, but it’s an embedded communications capability with a 3G chip in the side, we were just saying, ‘Please, check this stuff out otherwise the first you’ll know about it may well be when it just stops working.’ You might be on a large agricultural property and controlling gates remotely, or monitoring water levels in your dams or microclimates, or you might be tracking assets and trucks for a freight company or wander up to a vending machine to pay for a Pepsi Max and nothing happens. A security system might be looking after your premises, and all of a sudden there’s no link back to the base station and no remote observation capability. You might think, ‘What’s going on here?’ So what we’ve tried to do is just raise awareness of this as a possibility that people should turn their minds to, beyond the evidence you heard earlier in the day about the handsets themselves. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Is this something that a telco should be doing? 

Mr Billson:  We’ve encouraged the telcos to step up and be more frank about where this technology is embedded. There are a number of websites, but even those websites—the Australian Mobile Telecommunications Association website is a good resource but focuses very much on the handset. It doesn’t go very far at all into these embedded 3G applications, where it’s quite secondary to what the kit is designed to do but if it’s not there—you would have heard this from the surveyors—the total station using 3G will just not work. You’re not thinking about that when you’re looking at the functionality of that total station, just as you aren’t thinking about it if you’re running a transport business and keeping track of where your trucks are, or if you’ve got a point of sale. We’re trying to work out, if we are able, just how many of these pay pads where you walk up with a card and pay actually have a 3G chip as the comms to open the gate at a car park or to pay for a vending machine purchase. It’s been really hard to work out how deep that is. 

My sense—and it’s only a sense—is that those most likely to know are the telcos, because someone is paying for the use of that spectrum. I suggest the Senate might encourage the telcos to have a look at who they’re billing for 3G use. You might go back to them and say: ‘You’ve obviously got 1,800 vending machines coming through your billing system. Maybe get in touch with the vending machine operators and play a role in helping to identify which capability providers have 3G as their comms link.’ But communications isn’t the primary focus of the kit being used in small and family businesses. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you. Your recommendation No. 1 says: 

The Australian Government and affected industries should engage in a targeted education scheme. 

That would imply to me that it’s not currently targeted or is not effective. 

Mr Billson:  Well, I’m not sure what it is. We’ve been flabbergasted by how limited the awareness is. I can’t recall, but the number of media interviews that I have done, particularly on regional and rural radio, trying to raise awareness of it would be in the dozens. We’ve put material out through social media and the print media, and people have said: ‘Wow! I didn’t know about that.’ We’ve heard other stories where people with handsets have been getting engaged by the telcos, and maybe they’re dealing with that: ‘Hey, soon your 3G handset’s not going to work. You might want to do something about it.’ They are maybe not seeing that as a great priority, but that’s the more immediate one. We’re just concerned about these embedded uses of the technology, which could really compromise the businesses, including family enterprises. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  The themes that come through in your submission are the complexity and the unawareness of the complexity. I might be a small business owner who has a 5G phone, so I think I’m right and I don’t need to worry about that, but my business might be riddled with embedded devices that I’m not aware of. 

Mr Billson:  You might be selling miniature goats at regional shows, and you have a mobile EFTPOS machine. You might not know. You might be using a device to monitor the microclimate in your vineyard. You might not know. Gates opening, refilling water troughs and tracking assets around the place are the sorts of things. It may affect your security system. You might not know, because the focus of that kit is not the comms link. That’s kind of in the background. It might not trigger— 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  This is my last question. You are recommending that the inquiry’s report stress the need for improved communications to develop awareness of the embedded devices in particular. 

Mr Billson:  Yes, sir. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Also, the question is who should wear the cost of that. Surely it should be the telcos, not the taxpayer or the government, doing it. 

Mr Billson:  Well, I think the telcos have an important role here. I understand and respect their motive to make the highest and best use of the spectrum that’s available, but I would have thought supporting a transition would have been a commercially reasonable thing to expect of them. There is also the fact that they’re the ones billing people who are using 3G capability in whatever form it might be. They’re also the most likely to know where these applications are. I would be encouraging them to step forward and lean in at those levels. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  In your role, you are aware of many problems and you get around. If you are shocked at the level of unawareness, surely that needs a call for delaying or deferring the shutdown of 3G. 

Mr Billson:  Possibly. I was asked about that on regional radio. To be honest, I said, if we’re just going to do more of the same, perhaps not, because nothing will change. But, if there’s a different approach to raise awareness and engage with, from my perspective, small and family businesses that are using kit with that embedded technology—if there’s a different approach—then a window of time to enable that to be effected is credible. But I did say on radio that, if we’re just going to leave it as it is and hope people become aware of it through serendipity, maybe extending the time frames— 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  From your listed devices, we can’t do that. It’s going to be catastrophic. It’s like Y2K in reverse. The problem with Y2K was tiny; it wasn’t really a problem. But the hype was huge. In this case, the problem is huge and potentially catastrophic, but the talk is minimal. 

Mr Billson:  I will take that as a comment, thank you. 

Australian Competition and Consumer Commission

Transcript

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  Thank you both for appearing. Your comments trigger some really serious questions. Have you seen James Parker’s submission? 

Ms Morice:  I saw it last night. I did read it yesterday evening. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  It’s well worth a read. It opened my eyes a lot. I thought this issue was just about 3G coverage, regional access, safety issues, productivity and environment. What I’ve learned is that there’s much, much more, and James Parker’s submission opened my eyes to that. He claims that the industry is sacrificing public interest for commercial interests: getting more handset sales by shutting down 3G, forcing people to buy new handsets; more telco sales; more revenue for the associated industry; and recouping their 5G investment, because it hasn’t been as lucrative as they thought. He’s saying it’s more commercially beneficial to sell people new phones than to provide updates to existing devices—in other words, forced obsolescence. Do these things come within your purview? 

Ms Morice:  They would if they raised issues under the Australian Consumer Law. For example, if a form of misleading representation had been made to consumers that they had to perform a certain action which may not have been necessary, potentially. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  You can’t go to intent—only actions and what they’ve stated? 

Ms Morice:  I don’t think we can go to intent. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  That’s what I thought. Mr Parker is saying it’s also about preserving market control and reducing costs. He’s saying there’s a simple solution, and that is 4G standardisation, which the telcos are not interested in because they want to preserve market control and reduce costs rather than spending it on standardising 4G. It’s the same with the handset manufacturers and the telcos. The industry is basically sacrificing safety and customers instead of fixing standardisation issues. Is that something you can pursue? 

Ms Morice:  I think Mr Parker set out a number of device compatibility issues in his submission. I don’t think we’re aware of those issues he set out. We have focused on some of them, but they’ve been more to do with a different issue. I’m not in a position to have all the technical information, so I don’t think I could really provide an answer on whether there’s a standards issue from our perspective. We’re not the technical regulator. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Has Mr Parker piqued your interest? He’s basically saying that instead of turning everything upside down and causing a mess by pushing the solution as being one of shutting down 3G—and we’ve heard that many people are not aware that they’ve got 3G devices embedded throughout their businesses—that we focus on the real solution, which is to standardise, so there’s no problem. He said this is being worked on overseas. Is that something you would explore? 

Ms Morice:  We can certainly have a look at some more detail in his submission, and if it raised issues we’d be very happy to have a look at that. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Would that include a call to Mr Parker? 

Ms Morice:  Yes. I’d be very happy to talk to Mr Parker. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  He’s basically saying that the industry has failed to address root causes, which are serious 4G compatibility issues, and we don’t need to go to this trouble and impose all these costs for the benefit of the telcos, the handset manufacturers and the associated industries.  

Ms Proudfoot:  The challenge we have is that we have that lens of the Competition and Consumer Act and the Australian Consumer Law that we’d need to have regard to. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  I accept that. Do you work with other departments—in this case the Department of Communications? 

Ms Proudfoot:  We do. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  How would you describe that relationship and the work you do together? 

Ms Proudfoot:  We engage at a range of levels. Sometimes, for an issue like this, we’ll have more frequent discussions, but we have semi-regular—probably at least fortnightly—communications with the department. We also work with the Australian Communications and Media Authority, who were here earlier, and have cross appointment relationships with our commissioners. For example, a member of ACMA sits on our communications committee as an associate commissioner, so we have good lines of communication with those groups and a clear understanding of who fits where. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  When did the ACCC first become aware of this issue? 

Ms Morice:  We were aware of issues to do with the handsets, but it wasn’t particularly on our radar. We first became aware of the issue to do with the category of handsets that are voice over LTE enabled but are unable to be used to make calls to 000, in early March this year. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  James Parker says that he was aware of the VoLTE compatibility issues with devices for four to five years. I think he said in his submission he became aware of it when it was introduced because he thought, ‘This is going to cause a problem one day, because 4G relies upon the 3G network.’ He forecast the problem. What he’s saying is the government departments have failed to monitor the switch-off. Who notified you of the problem? 

Ms Morice:  I think we received a briefing from the mobile network operators, but at about the same time the department also advised us. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  March? 

Ms Morice:  Yes. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  This year? 

Ms Morice:  Early March, yes. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Alright. Thank you very much. 

Telecommunication Industry Ombudsman

Transcript

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you for being here, Ms Gebert. On page 4 of your submission you say that the TIO can handle 3G shutdown related complaints about, first, misleading sales practices and, fifth, unclear information. I don’t know if you’ve read the submission by James Parker. 

Ms Gebert:  I haven’t, Senator, I’m sorry. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Okay. 

ACTING CHAIR:  Sorry to interrupt you, Senator Roberts. The chair has joined us online. Senator Canavan? 

CHAIR:  I’m happy for you to chair; you’re doing it so well. It’s better for someone in the room to do that. I’ll just ask questions when I need to. 

ACTING CHAIR (Senator Sterle):  Thanks, Senator Canavan. Well, that stops me sneaking out halfway through! Senator Roberts. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Mr Parker yesterday told us also that he believes the telco industry is sacrificing public interest for commercial interests—more handset sales, more telco sales and more revenue for associated industries; and recouping their 5G investment, which hasn’t been paying off so far. He says the industry has failed to address the root cause. They’re saying, ‘Switch off and shut down 3G. It’ll all be finished—no more problems.’ The core issue is serious 4G compatibility issues, and these issues can be solved with software, and that’ll be the end of the problem. We also know—I don’t know if you’ve read other submissions or listened to other testimony today or yesterday? 

Ms Gebert:  I haven’t, Senator Roberts. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  We also know that other countries have deferred their shutdown of 3G until late this decade—2028, for example, in France. Britain are still continuing with both their 3G and 2G. They’re not shutting them down. We’ve learned that only two countries have stopped their 3G. That’s China and Japan. They’ve got much higher population densities than we have, so they don’t face the same issues. And maybe America has too.  

But is this a case of misleading sales practices—because it seems to me from the evidence that the telcos have been saying, ‘3G is old. There’s better technology coming. The problem is just a change of technology. Sell more handsets. Make more telco sales and more revenue for associated industries,’ when all that’s needed is a software fix and standardisation of software. 

Ms Gebert:  What we’re hearing from consumers is they’re heavily reliant—which I think goes to the core of what you’re concerned about—on their telco, their phone and their internet, to get clear information. What we’ve seen through their complaints is that customers are a bit confused. They’re not really sure what’s going on. Positively, though, we have seen some of the telcos come forward, particularly for those that are the most vulnerable, and offer a number of different solutions that try and help bridge the gap. But there are people who would obviously know a lot more about the technical information and would be able to respond specifically to the technical nature of your concerns, Senator Roberts. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  What I’m saying, Ms Gebert, is that there is a case here, it seems, for telcos to be investigated for misleading sales practices—because their excuse is the wrong reason—and also for unclear information. We know from many witnesses yesterday and today that there are many small businesses who would say, ‘I’ve got a 5G phone; it doesn’t affect me,’ when 3G devices that will be shut down are embedded in their business. There will be an enormous cost, needless cost, because the telcos are covering up the main issue. 

Ms Gebert:  That’s not what’s coming through in the complaints that we receive. And our role is really to ensure that we understand the nature of the issues coming to us and that we’re able to work with the individual customers who are presenting to us about their concerns. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  You also mentioned that complaints are the tip of the iceberg. We also know that awareness is low. I’m wondering whether that’s deliberate because the telcos are going to make a lot of money out of selling new handsets and, potentially, other new devices. My office went back over the recordings today and assessed it. Of 3G-only handsets, there’ll be an extra 40,000 sold that’ll be redundant next month, from Telstra alone. There are 224 from TPG. Of 4G non-VoLTE, there will be 186,000, plus another 8,000 from TPG. Of 4G non-VoLTE emergency, there are 9,000 affected for Telstra, 25,000 for Optus and 16,000 for TPG. These are the numbers that the telcos actually gave earlier this morning. Of 4G sub-700-megahertz, there are 13,000 from Telstra. Of those that TPG were unsure of and were trying to assess, there were 16,500. That’s 465,000 handsets, and, as we’ve heard from many witnesses, a lot of people are unaware. Of other devices—the Internet of Things, 3G water meters et cetera—there were 399,000 for Telstra. Of smartwatches, there were 63,000 for Telstra. Of tablets, there were 45,000, plus 100,000 for Optus. So that’s 500,000 in total from Telstra, 100,000 from Optus and 1,000 from TPG, for a total of 608,000 other devices. That’s a total of a million devices that will be redundant in a month. 

Ms Gebert:  Yes. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  So there’s nothing you can do about it? You can only act on complaints? 

Ms Gebert:  We can act on the complaints that we receive. We also have a systemic issue function that would look at whether there’s something underpinning the nature of the issues coming to us. But the specific issues that you’ve raised are not coming through in a nature that would prompt us to undertake a systemic investigation. As I said before, we aren’t able, as an ombudsman scheme, to prevent or otherwise stop the shutdown of 3G. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  I understand you can’t stop it, because you said in your submission: 

The TIO cannot handle 3G shutdown related complaint issues about:  

  • dissatisfaction with the decision … 

I get that, but this is a potential catastrophe coming. There’s only a month to go. 

Ms Gebert:  There is only a month to go, yes. You’re correct. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  A lot of individuals are going to be catastrophically hurt. 

Ms Gebert:  You’re correct. There is a significant impact on people. One of the things that we’ve been doing since late last year is providing independent information and advice, specifically to those consumers that come to us but also through our website, and connecting our consumer panel with industry organisations to help ensure more accurate provision of information to those that are impacted. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Who can we take this up with? You’ve said yourself that the complaints are the tip of the iceberg. We have a massive number—1,072,000—of devices soon to be cut off. We have low awareness. You said that yourself. But you only deal with complaints. How do we head this train wreck off? 

Ms Gebert:  I think it’s a responsibility of the industry, as well as anyone around it, like us, to ensure there is the provision of accurate information to help people understand both their rights and the steps that need to be taken to be able to manage themselves through the shutdown of 3G. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Can you contact James Parker, or at least read his submission? 

Ms Gebert:  I can contact James Parker. I can do that. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you very much. 

Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development, Communications & the Arts

Transcript

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you for that. I’m pleased that there’s a precedent and that you’re aware of it. Coming back to the emergency call provisions and ACMA: it seems to me, from our session with ACMA this morning, that they’re reluctant to get involved. What are the steps? Does your department or does the minister notify ACMA? Does ACMA then follow suit? 

Mr Chisholm:  It can happen in a couple of ways. This is where the broader piece of work being done on triple 0 and the outcomes of the review from the Optus outage are quite relevant. I might ask Ms Silleri to talk about what ACMA and the government are doing on that front. 

Ms Silleri:  As you heard this morning, the ACMA has responsibility for the emergency call services determination, which broadly sets out the rules and arrangements to ensure that when you call triple 0 you get through. When we looked at the ecosystem that supports triple 0, as a result of the Optus outage, we found that there were a number of gaps and flaws in that ecosystem, whether that be through formal arrangements, informal arrangements, processes or the actual rules. Many of the recommendations from that review, of which there are 18 in total, are aimed at improving the rules around the ecosystem and particularly the emergency call services determination. 

In the government response to the review, the minister indicated she would be directing the ACMA to review the emergency call services determination. I can advise that we’re currently consulting on a draft of that direction. Not only does it look at issues identified in the Optus outage; it’s also looking at issues we’ve learnt through this 3G closure process. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  That’s very refreshing to hear, and reassuring. 

Ms Silleri:  One of the things we’re most concerned about is: if it’s considered that the rules in the determination do not require that all calls to triple 0 be carried, then they should. That’s where we’re heading. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  So you’re updating literally in real time, from yesterday and today— 

Ms Silleri:  The minister will direct the ACMA in a very short period of time, and then the ACMA will conduct that work. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you. Europeans seem to be only just now waiting. I’ve referenced James Parker’s submission and his testimony yesterday many, many times in this hearing; it has been quite a revelation. It seems to me that France is deferring until late this decade—to 2028, I think. Britain continues to use 2G and 3G, as do other countries like South Africa. They seem to be waiting, so we’re in good company—so it’s not as though you’ve dropped the ball. 

I was going to focus on who knew what when, but I think Senator Sterle and Senator Canavan have asked those questions. What have you or your staff learnt from that, Mr Chisholm? One of the things that has happened is that TPG have already bolted; they’ve flown the coup, and that’s very disappointing to hear and read. I understand that TPG has a relationship with Optus which enables it to get access to 3G anyway, so they haven’t really bolted. But I don’t want to see Telstra and Optus bolt. 

Mr Chisholm:  You’re right, in the sense that TPG transitioned earlier this year, January, and they have the capability of their triple 0 calls camping-on to Optus and Telstra. So the potential impact associated with a switch from 3G for triple 0 isn’t really being experienced in the case of TPG because of that link. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  Exactly. 

Mr Chisholm:  Optus and Telstra are engaging quite extensively with TPG, and TPG with Optus and Telstra, to ensure that those customers are identified and are supported in advance of any transition. But you are correct that the potential impact of that has been muted because of the camping-on capabilities that exist there. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  What actions have you implemented? You convened a meeting, I think, with the industry earlier this year, February, which seems to me horribly late, but I think the industry has been keeping you out of the loop somehow. 

Ms La Rance:  Can we just add that we have had quarterly reporting from industry from around 2021. We requested, due to some of the issues that we saw coming through that reporting late last year, much more granular reporting. That reporting has been useful, and, in something similar, you might seek the granular reporting earlier. We also have the work that is already underway through the Bean review, which will address some of the risks that we’ve seen coming through the 3G shutdown as well. That’s already underway, as Ms Silleri has outlined. 

Mr Chisholm:  The thing that I’ve been looking at here is the point that was made earlier that there was this strong focus for some time, stretching back to 2021, on the reporting and service equivalence. It was really only late last year that the question of a proportion of devices not able to make emergency services calls was being raised. This is despite the fact that we were getting very regular—at some point, quarterly—reporting, which is now, obviously, much more intensive reporting, from industry. Then, in December last year, Telstra, in its quarterly report, indicated that there were some devices—older handsets—that were potentially impacted and that Telstra, Optus and TPG were working together to look at that. Then, early this year, following on from that, we undertook a range of our own analysis and wrote out to the companies, and the minister commissioned the working group and a number of the reporting mechanisms that sit under that. We obviously do depend on industry giving us the information that we need to advise government and to communicate with the community about the impacts of these changes, and it’s fair to say that, as soon as we started to get a sense that there were devices that were going to be impacted that weren’t previously identified, we did ramp up our engagement and put in place more regular reporting. The minister has now written on a number of occasions to industry and met with the companies to seek updates from them. As I say, she is aware of regulatory options that are available to her. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you for that. That’s very encouraging and reassuring. I think Ms La Rance said that reporting started under the Morrison government—quarterly reporting from April 2021. It was initially just Telstra, when Telstra was asked, and it was specifically about 3G shutdown and 4G coverage. Then, in May 2023, you added Optus to the party—your department did. 

Ms La Rance:  Minister Rowland requested quarterly reporting from Optus. 

Mr Chisholm:  Minister Rowland’s, yes. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  So, rather than be embarrassed by your lack of action, you’ve actually taken action to ramp it up when you started becoming concerned? 

Mr Chisholm:  Correct. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you. 

Ms La Rance:  I think quantifying it was an important part of that. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Exactly, the data. Wonderful. 

Ms La Rance:  We became aware of the scale. As the mobile network operators gave as evidence this morning, they also became aware of the scale around that time with the corrective questions. We took that to the minister when we got it in late February this year. The minister acted quite quickly, along with us, to establish that working group and that fortnightly reporting, which has the information that we’ve discussed today on the different device types and numbers. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Perhaps jumping the gun a bit here: if you defer or intervene then perhaps there could be an objective threshold criteria which has been met by the telcos specified by your department or by the minister to say that, when you achieve this level of surety or this level of conversion, so that there are no people left behind when 3G shuts down, then, and only then, will they shut it down. Or maybe this is such a mammoth exercise, looking at the number of devices, that you make an indefinite extension. 

Mr Chisholm:  That very much goes to that question of obtaining assurance that, particularly when it comes to handsets, triple 0 calls will be able to be made. That has been our fundamental concern in relation to devices: the switch will happen when it happens, and people will still be able to make phone calls on some of those devices, but triple 0 calls won’t work. That is not acceptable for the government. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  No, and it will be interesting to know if you can give us, one day, a deadline by when we will know that every lift and every airport is okay. Until then, I don’t think we can afford to shut it down. As I said, we’re in good company. We’ve got some leading operators in Europe now recognising that the core issue here is an industry failure to address the root cause, which is serious 4G compatibility issues and still relying upon 3G. I thought this whole exercise was about just about regional access, safety, productivity and the environment, but I have learned, just in the space of 48 hours, that it’s a hell of a lot more and much more serious. It raises questions, including of the minister and the department. It seems like you’ve got that covered. Now we will have to be watching what the minister does in the future to protect Australians. 

Ms La Rance:  We will provide the list of critical industry peak bodies that we’ve contacted. I will add that this list isn’t exhaustive. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  When did you contact them? 

Ms La Rance:  We have contacted them—we would have to check the timeframe—over the last 12 months. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  So it is not just since you became concerned? 

Ms La Rance:  No. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  I noted here that in February this year you started getting more detailed numbers, and that coincides with your first elevated meeting. 

Ms La Rance:  Yes. February this year was that breadth and that particular focus on that triple 0 issue. 

Mr Chisholm:  To give you a sense of it: we have been very broad. This list includes water and sewage services, energy companies, health care and hospitals, universities, and food and groceries. We’ve talked about transport, infrastructure companies, defence, transport and space technology. We have gone very broadly, in terms of sectors that we’ve reached out to, and we’ll continue to do that work as part of the information we need to gather for advising the minister. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  That’s good news. One of the things I’ve done is go through the submissions and the witness statements. I went through, in particular, Mr Parker’s submissions and his summary statements. I came up with five sets of questions. The fourth one was his belief that there has been insufficient oversight from the minister, the department, ACCC, ACMA and media, but I can see now that it hasn’t been insufficient. You are ramping it up, which is good to see. I have more questions, but the final thing we need to see from your department or the minister is a quantified threshold to say that when that’s reached, only then can you move on and shut 3G and, even better, as part of that threshold, a specification that they will sort out the 4G compatibility issue. That seems to be the core problem. The rest is smoke and mirrors, not on your part, but on the industry’s part—they’re playing footloose here. 

Ms La Rance:  Through that working group there has been a lot of work undertaken to understand the different devices and share that information, and we will continue to work with ACMA on those device standards as well.  

​​Senator ROBERTS:  On the compatibility issues? 

Ms La Rance:  Yes, the standards for devices being able to operate, and that goes to the triple 0 issue in particular. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  I understand there’s GSMA and GSM, which provide advice or hints rather than hard standards globally, and the European countries are now starting to wake up to the fact they’re not in compliance with them. It seems as though the same applies here. 

Ms La Rance:  We’re aware of Mr Parker’s submission and we’ve gone through that. We’ll make sure that the relevant issues will be raised. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  I’m sorry. What was that last sentence? 

Ms La Rance:  We’ll make sure that, if there are issues in there that are relevant, they will be raised. There’s already an awareness of most of them. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  You are already aware. So there’s hope that not only will 3G continue until it’s safe to do so but that the compatibility issue, the core issue, will also be addressed by your department, or make sure that the industry addresses it. 

Ms La Rance:  It’s under consideration to see what there is to be addressed. Some of the issues that have been raised are in progress, or some of the characterisation by Mr Parker is a little bit different, but we will work with ACMA on that. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Who is ultimately responsible if it proceeds and is a commercial disaster or people’s lives are threatened or even deaths occur because of failures? Is the department, the minister, the telcos, or all of the above, responsible? 

Mr Chisholm:  At the end of the day, the companies have responsibilities to their customers associated with that switch. So that’s one set of responsibilities. Industries themselves that represent organisations or individuals with devices who are aware of the transition have a responsibility to ensure that that communication effort is being amplified and undertaken. And the government— 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Let me just check my understanding. You’re saying that the telcos are responsible and you are responsible for making sure they’re responsible. 

Mr Chisholm:  The role we have taken is twofold—I guess it’s threefold. One is to get to the bottom of the information like how many numbers of devices are affected, where are those devices— 

​​Senator ROBERTS:​  With due respect, also the compatibility issues, the core issue. 

Mr Chisholm:  Absolutely. That’s something that’s very relevant. That’s one part of what we do. The other part of what we do is to amplify and ensure that people are aware of this. We have seen the— 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Which people? Do you mean the customers? 

Mr Chisholm:  The customers. Some of the industries we’ve talked about here this morning, as part of the reaching out effort and talking to these industries, there have been times when we’ve found that they are well aware of it; there are other times we have found they are less aware of it. We see our job as bringing that information to the broader set of information or broader set of groups as possible. Thirdly—and this comes to your question—at the end of the day, we provide advice back to government about all of those issues and the potential recourse available under legislation to respond to that issue. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  It’s not sufficient to say, ‘We’re going to switch over in two months, six months, 12 months, two years.’ That doesn’t cut it. A lot of people think, ‘Well, I’ve got my latest phone, it’s 5G,’ and they think that’s sweet, but they don’t know about the embedded devices all through their businesses, hundreds of the darn things, or the lifts in the airport. 

I think that’s the critical step that the telcos have failed on, because that has come through loud and clear, be it from the Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman this morning or from other groups. A lot of people don’t know that they’re exposed here, and they’re relying upon you to protect them. I think that’s another part. 

Perhaps I could go to something else to see if you’re aware of it. Mr Parker—and I’m pleased to see that you’re going to be reading his paper in detail— 

Ms La Rance:  We already have. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  You already have? That’s good. I’m trying to advertise it because I was seriously impressed by it. He deserves a medal. In one of the summaries from his two-page summary he says that the industry is sacrificing public interest for commercial interest. I’m not accusing the telcos of being corrupt; I think they’re probably swept up in the groupthink. He says specifically that more handset sales, more telco sales and more revenue for associated industry are all very alluring. Under the circumstances, people can get swept along and think that it’s all hunky-dory, when they don’t really look. And I’m pleased to see that you are looking. 

He also mentioned that the industry could likely be suffering from a shortfall on ‘recouping their 5G investment’ and that they’re looking to spur along 5G sales. In other words, it’s more commercially beneficial, as he says, to sell people new phones than provide updates to existing devices. But the key is the updates to existing devices. So I think that we’ve got an industry sacrificing safety and customers instead of fixing the standardisation issues at the moment. 

Mr Chisholm:  I would be reluctant to express an opinion about the broader investment and commercial considerations that might be relevant to the telecommunications companies’ considerations. There are a whole set of issues there that are probably best directed to them. I’m aware of the points you’ve raised there. I would come back to what our fundamental focus is: irrespective of the motivations of the transition, it must address the concerns and considerations that we’ve outlined here today about public safety and about ensuring that we don’t have any of the risks realised that we’ve talked about. 

Ms La Rance:  That has very much been the focus of that working group, and the three mobile network operators have been participating in all of those working group meetings and outlining what they’re doing to contact affected consumers and industry groups. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  I think that there is consumer protection—that’s officially ACCC’s role—but surely, as part of your oversight of the telcos, that’s part of your role as well. 

Mr Chisholm:  We have been communicating with regulators as well, ACMA and the ACCC, and we’re providing advice to the minister. But one of the key roles of government in any of these industry transition issues, particularly where you’ve got this question of potential safety impacts, is to reach as many people as we possibly can. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Not only reach them but make sure they understand. 

Mr Chisholm:  Absolutely—reach them and make sure they understand. And if there’s a view that some of those technical issues you’ve outlined haven’t been properly addressed, or if we can’t be confident that they’ll be addressed, that will certainly be relevant to our advice back to government.  

​​Senator ROBERTS:  I think that we need to see a position where the telcos can guarantee that every trucker with a 3G tracker has been contacted; that, for every piece of farm equipment, as Senator Canavan said, every holder has been contacted; and that every lift in every airport will work. I also understand that, in relation to the emergency calls determination, ACMA testified that a certain network, such as 3G, not being available to make emergency calls would not breach the rules. Is that the case? 

Mr Chisholm:  There’s a requirement under the rules to ensure that triple 0 calls are able to be made. It doesn’t focus on whether it’s 3G or 4G; however, our focus is on ensuring that triple 0 calls can be made as part of the transition anyway. 

Ms Silleri:  The ACMA has a certain interpretation of the existing determination, which is why the minister is currently considering a review of the direction to them to make it beyond doubt that calls must be carried to triple 0. If I could just add something on one of the issues that you touched on around device compatibility, an additional recommendation arising from the Optus outage review—I think it’s recommendation 3—is that there must be mandated six-monthly testing across devices and networks for end-to-end interoperability to ensure that a call can be carried from one network to another, regardless of the device. That testing requirement is currently being developed by the industry association Communications Alliance under request from the ACMA. So that’s a further measure that will ensure that, going forward, handsets and networks will be configured in a way that calls will be carried to triple 0. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  Thank you for that. My staff have just been through the proceedings from today and have been getting some of the details. As I said, with more than a million devices not being compatible after 3G is removed, maybe they meant that some networks will still rely on 3G.  

One of the things that surprised me today—well, maybe it didn’t surprise me—was that the Optus representative—Mr Pickard, I think it was—said that Optus was not aware of the size of the impact until 24 February. How is it that a company the size of Optus, with the customer reach it’s got and the responsibility it’s got, can make a decision to shut down and then not be aware until a few months before the deadline? That’s really chilling. 

Ms La Rance:  I understand that that was in relation to quantifying the triple 0 devices that appeared to work but wouldn’t. That came to light for industry in the second half of last year. That was the process that I’ve gone through a couple of times with quantifying it. So industry— 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  So you’re saying it’s to their credit that they’ve opened up and found it? 

Ms La Rance:  Once they were aware of the problem to then understand how many people were affected—that is an issue, the triple 0 issue, that came to light last year. 

​​Senator ROBERTS:  It’s pretty embarrassing. 

ACTING CHAIR:  We are running short of time, so, Senator Roberts, do you have any more?  

​​Senator ROBERTS:  That’s it from me. 

Snowy Monaro Regional Council

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for being here, and thank you for an excellent opening statement. Have you read James Parker’s submission?

Mr Hanna: No, I have not.

Senator ROBERTS: It explains many of the issues and what’s driving many of the issues you raise. Your No. 1 point, in order of chronology, was black spots. I experienced them coming down from Canberra, so I know
exactly where you are—especially around Bombala. Your second point—and, arguably, in my interpretation, your biggest point—is the lack of information and the lack of dialogue with the telcos; is that correct?

Mr Hanna: That’s correct. Telstra have been positive on keeping council up to date on a number of things. However, keeping council up to date is different to keeping their consumers up to date, and I don’t think they’ve
done that well enough.

Senator ROBERTS: That’s a fine distinction you make; it’s critical, because councils don’t represent everyone. They serve everyone but they don’t represent everyone. What engagement have you had with telcos and
what engagement have ratepayers had with Telstra? I take it it’s mainly Telstra?

Mr Hanna: Yes—mainly Telstra at this point in time. The Telstra provider and the person in charge of this area has come out and spoken to a number of community members; her name is Christine. She is happy to keep
doing that. Unfortunately there’s only so much she can do, but she has been able to do follow-ups. They were having regular meetings with council in the early stages, and they keep the information of what is happening. Again, it comes down to: have they provided enough information to the consumer? I don’t believe so.

Senator ROBERTS: One of the things I’m concerned about is that the 3G maps cover less area than the actual 3G footprint; in other words, there are areas that get 3G that are beyond or outside the recognised or specified coverage of 3G. I believe the telcos are saying they will cover 4G on all the spots that have 3G, and no-one will miss out. Is that in regard to the specs or the actual larger footprint—or has no-one even talked about that yet?

Mr Hanna: I couldn’t answer that question.

Senator ROBERTS: So you lack information about the emergency call service as well?

Mr Hanna: That’s correct. I was at Creewah—that’s just outside Bombala—a few weeks ago, at their AGM meeting. Their biggest concern is they run off 3G but they have not had any information on what will happen
once that 3G network is turned off and on what that means to those people there. I couldn’t even make a phone call on the 3G network out there three weeks ago.

Senator STERLE: Why couldn’t you make a call?

Mr Hanna: It just wouldn’t go through.

Senator STERLE: And you were on 4G?

Mr Hanna: I was on 3G at the time; I’ve got 4G, but my mobile phone converted over to 3G. I could not make a phone call out there. I couldn’t even get access. They asked me for information and I couldn’t even get access on my phone. 3G is very poor in that data side of things, so that’s probably the main reason for that.

Senator ROBERTS: Let me quote the first paragraph of James Parker’s summary and opinion: It is clear that the 3G network switch-offs must be permanently postponed. Failing to do so prioritises commercial interests
over the public interest, risks lives, harms competition, and undermines essential communication. Mr Parker, as I understand it, is an expert in IT and communications. Does what he said concern you?

Mr Hanna: One hundred per cent. There are many people in our region that are elderly, that have got pacemakers and that will have to convert over to a new upgrade. Are they all aware of it? Have they had the
opportunity to upgrade? They are my concerns. If someone has an accident on a tractor, which we have had many times before where tractors have rolled, if they can’t make a triple 0 phone call it is a big concern.

Senator ROBERTS: He goes on in the fourth paragraph of his summary: The planned switch-offs are entirely set to serve the commercial and business interests of the network providers, partnered
handset makers and associated industry. Would you like to make any comment on that?

Mr Hanna: I think it speaks for itself.

Senator ROBERTS: Newer Android devices support the GSMA and the TS.43 standard, which should enable automatic 4G calling activation. However, according to Google’s documentation, only a few networks
have implemented this feature. None of the Australian providers are on that global list.

Mr Hanna: That’s a concern.

Senator ROBERTS: That’s a big concern.

Mr Hanna: That’s a massive concern.

Senator ROBERTS: Let me go to the second paragraph of his summary: It’s clear that to date there has been insufficient oversight of the switch-off from Government, Minister, the ACCC, ACMA
and Media. Have you had any interaction with those agencies and the minister? Are they riding shotgun on this? Are they properly overseeing it, as far as you can see?

Mr Hanna: No, not to my knowledge. We haven’t had any communication from any of them.

Senator ROBERTS: His third paragraph: In my view the industry has not been open or transparent around this issue and communication about the impacts has neglected to provide key information to customers. The industry is entirely aware of the problem— that is, the inability to use 4G in some areas, even if you have got the 4G signal—for voice calls, that is; you can use it for data but not for voice— but as shown in the EENA presentation, nobody wants to take responsibility for it and fix it.

Mr Hanna: It’s shocking that no-one wants to take responsibility. They need to step up. We need to get the infrastructure in place before they turn off the 3G network. It’s pretty simple.

Senator ROBERTS: These problems have been well known overseas, apparently, in America, Europe and other countries. From memory, France, the United Kingdom and South Africa, and there may be one other
country, have delayed ending 3G for many years—I think France is out to 2028—because of the inherent problem in the firmware that the telcos are just not addressing or even admitting. It would seem to be that we need to extend the shutdown date for 3G for several years, not just one or two or a few months.

Mr Hanna: That’s correct. As I’ve said, 3G should not be turned off until the infrastructure and everybody has been upgraded. If that’s what is being talked about overseas, why are we not doing the same here?

Senator ROBERTS: It seems that the telcos, from Mr Parker’s submission—and he goes into a comprehensive, pretty detailed explanation; it seems very competent to me—are running away from the inherent
problem of 4G not being able to be voice call unless there are modifications made to handsets. Some handsets are compatible, some are not. People just don’t know what the hell is going on.

Mr Hanna: Correct. Like I said in my statement, we’ve got a large population of elderly and disadvantaged people. Can they afford to upgrade their phones? I just bought a new phone a few months ago. It cost me nearly
$1,500. I can afford that, but can everybody afford to upgrade their phones? Unless those phones are upgraded— and potentially they are; I can’t talk on everybody’s behalf, but potentially all phones that are out there can take the 4G, but we’re not guaranteed that right now. If telcos are able to send a message to their customer in regard to whether their phone is compatible, they should have that data to us today—and they don’t.

Senator ROBERTS: That’s what would be expected, but, according to Mr Parker, even the telco’s tests are not reliable. He’s basically saying, the way I read it, that they don’t know what the hell they’re doing, yet they’re
wanting to foist this on customers simply to sell more handsets and more plans.

Mr Hanna: I can’t comment on behalf of the telcos, but that’s what I would be doing—making sure that everybody is up to date and upgraded before turning off the 3G network.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you.

National Rural Health Alliance

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS:Could you elaborate more on a social contract?

Ms Tegen: First of all, as I opened with, I think Australia is forgetting that rural, remote and regional Australia has kept Australia out of two financial crises and supported recovery after COVID. We have a
wonderful economy. If you look at Western countries around the world, ours is doing so incredibly well due to the resources sector, agriculture and tourism, and we are treating rural, remote and regional Australia as if they were a third World country. We have a $6.55 billion underspend per annum in health expenditure alone. We’re not spending the money on education, and we’re definitely not spending the money on industry and infrastructure. Infrastructure includes telecommunications. It is often because the markets failed in rural, remote and regional Australia, and yet we’ve continued to keep Australia in the economic and social wealth that we have. In economic terms, when markets fail, that is when government steps in, and government steps in to allow the economy, through education, health and infrastructure, to do well and to continue to deliver. If Australia were a company and 30 per cent of your company were bringing in two-thirds of the wealth, wouldn’t you expect to spend more money in that 30 per cent of the company so that the wealth continues to grow?
So I’m saying that we have a social and economic contract to support that part of the economy to do better, and we’re currently not doing that. We have to do that because we need our economic contribution to grow so that we can fund the health and the infrastructure. Again, rural Australia is not a Third World country. It shouldn’t have to beg and plead to get a service. When I say there is a $6.55 billion underspend, that is $850 less funding for each person in rural and remote Australia than for somebody that lives in Bondi Junction, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth or Brisbane. We can no longer accept this when we know it is happening. So I’m saying that we can’t continue. Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, Ms Tegen. I’ll just interpret your message: if you take Australia as an entity, the maximum productivity comes from the rural areas, so we should be investing more in that, because it will magnify the return on investment.

Ms Tegen: Correct.

Senator ROBERTS: Could I turn to something that Senator Canavan raised during the break: the Starlink- Optus alliance or deal. If a telco’s service is poor and it’s not fulfilling its social contract or responsibility then it
won’t be remembered when technology changes the game, and people will just abandon it. Is that a fair comment? That’s what history seems to show. In other words, it’s in the telcos’ interests to look after you guys.

Ms Tegen: Definitely, but in the end I think there needs to be an understanding also that, if you have shareholders and they’re expecting a return on investment, they’re not going to want to support those areas that require further investment rather than making profit. I’m just wondering whether the KPIs address that particular problem, because it doesn’t match. It’s like a private health insurer. They’re not going to want to invest in those areas that are not going to make a profit, so it depends on what the KPIs are. I don’t think it matters which telco we have; if the KPI is to make a profit, they’re not going to want to invest in those areas where the returns are low or they are sinking further costs.

James Parker

I am constantly amazed by the Australians I come across in my work. The people who care about the country making submissions to inquiries like the one I initiated into the 3G shutdown do so much to expose the right solutions. Mr James Parker was one of those extraordinary people who I had the opportunity to talk to inside and outside the inquiry.

Thank you very much for your expertise and contribution James.

Transcript

CHAIR: Thank you for that. It’s a good start. I’ll come back if there’s time, but, Senator Roberts, you’re next.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr Parker, for your excellent submission. It’s powerful and filled with facts, and it raises some very, very serious points and question. I watched both the videos, and Hugh Jeffreys’ video hit the bullseye. Tell me if I’m saying anything wrong in this summary. You mentioned the software solution is available, and that solutions to this problem are real and practical and don’t need the shutting down of 3G. You also say a significant proportion of 4G devices currently in use either do not support 4G VoLTE calling, or only support it with the telcos they were purchased with regardless of whether the device is fully network unlocked. You also say that perfectly functional 4G, 5G phones will essentially become useless for making or receiving calls, with many ending up in landfill or not properly recycled while the lingering effects of the global chip shortage and the extreme ongoing cost-of-living crisis mean a complete switch off of 3G services in 2024 will pose a major financial challenge for many. These are just two of the many questions you ask. Could you tell me about your communication with the department, the significance of it and what you learnt please?

Mr Parker: I’ve been aware that this has been coming for a while. The industry and department may say, ‘Knowing what we know now, maybe we would have done things differently,’ but these issues have been obvious since the first 4G devices hit the market. When the iPhone 5s and the Samsung Galaxy S3s hit the market, they were 4G devices, but whenever you would go to make a call, you’d see that 4G icon disappear and be replaced by a 3G icon. So you think, ‘Why does that happen?’ And then you find out that 4G doesn’t actually have any native calling functionality, like 2G and 3G do. Therefore you think, ‘That’s going to be a problem someday,’ and here we are. Consistently, over the years, industry has failed to implement things properly. There are devices on Telstra’s support list that will only work if you bought that phone specifically from Telstra and that has Telstra software on it. If you purchased that phone from another operator, or if you purchased it retail or you purchased it elsewhere—maybe it’s a New Zealand model or a UK model or a US model—it can be exactly the same device hardware, there is nothing physically different about the device, but it won’t work simply because it has the other telecom operator’s software on it. Knowing about these issues for years, I felt it important to try to contact the minister. I could at least say, ‘Well, if this all goes pear-shaped, I’ve at least done something about it.’ In June, I wrote to the minister via email outlining all of the compatibility issues that I’ve experienced with devices using different software and different networks. I even pointed out the implications for triple 0 calling and people using devices from overseas in my original submission. Despite perhaps what the department would like it not to have been about, I did specifically point out implications for emergency calling in my 6 June email. I did not get a response to that, which I was not surprised by. In August, I followed up again with my local member, Anika Wells, and I had a bit of back and forth with her office, trying to get a response. Eventually, at the end of September, I did get a response. It basically did not acknowledge the issues I raised in my submission about the compatibility issues that exist for people and the misleading information from the providers and the cost-of-living impacts on people and the overall confusing and disruptive situation it would pose. A month later, in the Senate estimates, we had Senator Cadell ask questions of the department on whether there was any response from the government regarding unintended consequences. Senator Cadell was told, ‘No; we’re treating this as a corporate and commercial matter between Telstra and its customers.’ These issues have continued to persist. Obviously, we had that 8 November Optus outage. Following on from that, I made an even more comprehensive submission to that inquiry trying to bring these issues to the attention of the inquiry. And then, over the Christmas break, I was looking into it further and I found that European Emergency Number Association by that telecoms expert Rudolf van der Berg. I got in contact with him. He said he appreciated the heads-up and he said, ‘I’ve contacted people who know people at the ACMA and the ACCC to see if we can alert them more.’ That was early January. Then we had the department in February seemingly scrambling to do something about it. And then we had the announcement by the minister in March. So it’s clear there has been to date, and there continues to be up to this point now, a lack of oversight from the department and government about this issue. They’ve been way too over-reliant on reporting from industry. When AMTA in November said, ‘A very small number,’ the first question should have been, ‘What is that number?’ not, ‘Okay, that sounds fine; we’ll just leave you to it.’ There needs to actually be some scrutiny over these numbers, because the providers have a commercial interest for the switch-off to go ahead. The 3G network is expenses, and they would like to cut costs with that. Rudolf van der Berg in his EENA presentation in 2022 said, when AT&T in the US did it, they spent about US$300 million giving customers free phones. He said that gives you an idea of how much the providers can save by doing this; they can recoup that so quickly. If you’re stopping them from doing it, that creates an out-of-pocket cost that will get the boardroom’s attention, and then maybe someone will call up the testing department and ask: ‘Why didn’t you get this standardisation right? And why am I out of pocket a couple of hundred million dollars?’ I thought it was a very interesting comment that he made in that presentation.

Senator ROBERTS: I’ll just restate the second paragraph of your submission summary where you say: It’s clear that to date there has been insufficient oversight of the switch-off from Government, Minister, the ACCC, ACMA and Media. You just explain your frustration and your lack of respect for these government agencies because you became aware that there would be a problem when 4G first came in because you saw the 3G as well.

Mr Parker: Yes.

Senator ROBERTS: I’m guessing you’re saying that, because the government has just woken up, that is yet another reason—not only the technical reasons, the fairness reasons, the commercial reasons, the safety reasons— for delaying. You’re saying the government has been asleep. It needs to wake up and do its job. We should be delaying it at least until 2028 ,which is when France has delayed their cut-off to, or you’re saying we should never shut 3G.

Mr Parker: There will be a need at some point, when it’s impractical to keep the 3G network around. In countries like France, their providers are going to have 3G until about 2028 or 2029, and France is known for its very pro-consumer network policies. I think it was in Optus’s submission to this inquiry that they talked about how the UK had switched off their 3G network, and, therefore, this is industry standard, and we need to go ahead and do that. At the same time they completely ignored that the UK still has a 2G network, which means you have access to calling, roaming calling and emergency calling anywhere there is sufficient 2G coverage, and the UK is keeping that network up until around 2030 and 2033. So it’s convenient that the providers have cherrypicked what they want to say about it. It is clear that the government has not been paying attention to this. I have been calling for a delay. Most European companies are looking at maybe 2025 or 2026. We may be the second or third cab off the rank as far as Western countries. The United States has obviously done it before us, and in the year prior to the switch off we had Google and Apple scrambling to try and add new software to their devices, because obviously they’ve not been proactive about this, and industry has not been proactive about this. We really need to wait until much larger markets within Europe fix the compatibility and standardisation issues and get handset manufacturers and network operators to implement one single globally recognised standard that enables seamless connectivity, like we’ve had for decades with 2G and 3G. As a reminder of history, you can use any 2G or 3G enabled device purchased from any network provider or any retailer on any 2G or 3G network in the world, and it will work flawlessly. Whereas, none of that exists with 4G calling. There are major compatibility issues that still persist with new devices. It’s not guaranteed that you can purchase a device from a store or online and use it on any network and have access to calling, emergency calling and roaming. There are a number of issues that have been neglected. The department really should have announced a delay a year ago, when these sorts of issues were pointed out by AMTA or at least when I pointed them out in June. The announcement in March should not have been the establishment of a working group; it should have been, ‘Okay, we’re going to delay this by 12 months to ensure that consumers are not being adversely impacted.’ I’ve received messages from my provider, marketing emails, saying, ‘It’ll be mayhem; here’s our mayhem sale,’ and, ‘Now it’s time to upgrade.’ The providers definitely have an advantage here with the new device sales aspect of it, and consumers are vulnerable to the information that they receive from the network providers. They don’t know the difference between if their device works and if it doesn’t. They’re entirely reliant on what the messaging from the providers is. Telstra says, ‘We have an SMS testing system.’ As I point out in my submission, that system does not actually do a test to report compatibility. It simply looks up your phone model in a list, and if your phone is in that established list then it will say it works. It doesn’t actually report back whether you have working calling. I have devices that are configured perfectly for the network, and even when I make a 4G call I get that outbound calling message—on a device that I have manually updated to work. If I do an SMS test, it says, ‘It looks like your phone is reliant on 3G for voice calls.’ It isn’t. It’s using exactly the same configuration and software as all the other supported devices, yet Telstra is saying I need to replace it. Someone who’s not tech savvy is going to have absolutely no idea what to do. They’re just going to go to the nearest Telstra shop or Optus shop or whatever, and they’re just going to have to buy a new phone and cop the financial hit. That’s the situation, which could have been avoided if the department and government were actually concerned about the interests of consumers, as opposed to only being concerned about the network providers being able to go ahead as planned. As I think I put in my inquiry submission, the ACMA said a few years ago: One of the key issues for licensees is the uncertain timeline for the proliferation of Voice Over LTE (VoLTE)-enabled devices among consumers. The ACMA sought information from incumbent licensees on the expected timing and speed of consumer migration towards the use of VOLTE handsets, but still has no clear indication of intended migration paths. In the absence of receiving any further information to support a more detailed assessment, the ACMA considers that the proposed timeline outlined in this option (i.e. a mid-2024 …) provides enough opportunity for carriers to mitigate risks to the continuity of consumer services.  When the ACMA made that assessment, Android and iOS didn’t even have 4G call roaming support. So it goes back many years how this has been neglected. The switch-off should not be based on, ‘Well, we’ve made a lot of investment in 5G, and now we want a return on investment, so we’re going to shut off the 3G.’ The criteria for switch-off should be compatibility and standardisation within devices and on networks. It should not be based on the next quarter’s earnings. The telcos should serve the market and what the market has. It shouldn’t be that the telcos get to dictate the market. There are three main network providers, but there are millions of customers and millions of handsets. Why is it that the three get to dictate the whole market? It doesn’t really make any sense, and it doesn’t pass the pub test in any real way.

Senator ROBERTS: So you lack confidence in the numbers affected, you lack confidence in the testing of phones’ capabilities and you see a self-interested motivation to make exorbitant or excess profits, when solutions that are real and practical are in reach for the telcos. What you’re saying is to delay it at least until 2028, if not further. I’ll put the rest of my questions on notice, Mr Parker, but I want to thank you again for your clarity of answers.

Mr Parker: No worries.

National Farmers’ Federation & NSW Farmers

Transcript

CHAIR: Senator Roberts.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you all for participating, and thank you to the National Farmers Federation for their submission. I want to go to your submission, Mr Thomas. Specifically, on page 4, item 2 is headed
‘Providers must prioritise accountability and transparency through the transition’. Have you read James Parker’s submission?

Mr Thomas: I have not personally; Charlotte might say otherwise. But I did manage to catch some of his
evidence prior to us.

Senator ROBERTS: Clearly, in my view, the telcos and the handset providers just cannot be trusted. There is very little chance of accountability without trust, especially when the problem was not defined until Mr Parker came along. He’s got the solution there as well. Does anyone there have any comments on the serious issues he raises?

Mr Thomas: To be honest, I probably won’t wade into it too much, not being too familiar with the technical detail he was going into. It certainly sounded interesting. Perhaps I would just say that the focus for the NFF at
present has been on making sure that people are upgrading their devices to be compatible within the timeframe and making sure that we’ve got that coverage equivalency. When we talk about transparency and accountability, we’re primarily talking about that coverage equivalency piece. But, yes, we would certainly be interested to learn more about the issues that he’s raised and see what our members make of that.
Senator ROBERTS: The conclusions that I took from Mr Parker’s submission and from his testimony were quite startling. We’re being misled, it seems, by the telcos and possibly them in conjunction with the handset
makers. It seems to me that, for the benefit of your members, it would be important for the National Farmers Federation and NSW Farmers to actually work with Mr Parker to raise members’ awareness and to realise that we are quite likely being led down the garden path, and farmers are incurring needless expense and needless inconvenience.

Mrs Charlton: Just to add to that, I have not read Mr Parker’s submission, but NSW Farmers have conducted a survey, and I do agree that there is a lot of mistrust of the telcos. So it’s definitely out there, but I’d be interested to read his submission now. A bit like Charlie, I only heard bits and pieces, so I can’t comment on his submission and the conversation he had, but we will definitely look into that at NSW Farmers.

Senator ROBERTS: I understand that. Thank you so much for your understanding as well. I think it’s important for the benefit of members of both organisations to get Mr Parker’s message out, because it’ll save your
members a lot of inconvenience and a lot of time, and give them an enhanced service. Thank you, Chair. I’ve put my other questions on notice because I know the time deadline.

Surveyors Australia

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for appearing today. One of the big problems with the cost-of-living crisis is the inflation in the cost of building things, and housing costs have gone up dramatically. The 3G switchover is a cost on businesses like surveyors. Is there a chance they’ll have to pass that cost on and add to the inflation issue?

Mrs Blicavs: Yes, most certainly. The increasing costs of all we’re dealing with, the increased cost of our equipment—the only way we can deal with that is to pass that on to the public by increasing our surveying prices.

Mr Atkinson: This is one of the major problems we have in the industry. The other thing is the lack of communication from 3G in remote areas. All of my field work in remote areas that I used to have 3G coverage
for, which meant I had safety and communication, no longer has that, so I’m sending two-person field parties when usually a one-person field party would suffice to do the job. But, because they no longer have phone
reception, I need two people in case an emergency happens and they can’t call for assistance. We’ve also had to buy EPIRBs, or satellite communication, and that all ends up being passed on to the customer directly. So, for any job that I’m sending two people out to instead of one person, that’s a direct additional cost to those customers. That is the only way to make sure that my guys are coming home safely to their families at the end of each day, and that’s a necessity.

Mrs Blicavs: The technology upgrades, for a time, allowed us to run one-person field parties out in the field with a robotic. We could just send people out—one here, one there—and we could do multiple jobs in a day. We are seeing, and our research that we do every year says, that more and more are running two-people field parties again, so we’ve gone back. So the technology is good, but not from a safety perspective or for work health and safety. And now the 3G shutdown has added to that need. So that has just increased costs for consumers.

Senator ROBERTS: One question that’s been intriguing me, Mr Atkinson, perhaps because you’re exposed to these areas—Telstra and, I think, Optus have said they will cover existing 3G areas eventually.

Mr Atkinson: Eventually.

Senator ROBERTS: Okay. By that, do they mean areas that are spec’d as 3G or do they mean areas that are actually 3G—because the spec’d 3G is much less in area, apparently, than actual 3G. So, if they’re going to be
covering the spec’d, they’ll not cover lots of areas that are currently in 3G range.

Mr Atkinson: I can’t answer for them directly as to what they’ll end up covering, but I can talk about my experience of being remote. I do a lot of remote work. I cover from here to Tumut to the Victorian border to Eden
to Bermagui and then back through the mountain range. So I’m out there a lot. I would question the comment that their coverage is greater than their spec’d coverage. Quite often we will look at their mapping system to see if we’re going to have 3G coverage before we go to those jobs, and I would say that there’s often a time when it’s mapped as not having 3G that I pull my phone out and can make a phone call. I would say that it’s probably almost the other way around—that, if it’s mapped as 3G and it’s on the fringe, I would be going there expecting to not have the coverage. But that’s my experience in this area alone. What is mapped and what is achievable is probably—

Senator ROBERTS: The reverse of what I said.

Mr Atkinson: the reverse of what you’ve said. There’s also the continuity of the connection, especially with this. If you’re running this, you need to hold the connection constantly to have the data logging and communicating its information back and forward. If you are on those fringes, you don’t have that continuity, and therefore it is again redundant and you can’t use that technology.

Senator ROBERTS: In your submission you gave us examples of the huge costs that some people face, including some near the end of their working careers. They’re just not doing it, which hastens the end of their
working careers. Can you see any disadvantage or danger to your members if the government chose to intervene and delayed the 3G shutdown?

Mrs Blicavs: No, that would help us. A delay would be good. We’ve appreciated the three months that we’ve had. We think that any further delays would be helpful because they would allow us to continue using what we’ve got, or, say, for those who were planning to leave surveying in two years, because they could then leave within two years rather than investing some thousands of dollars now to only work another two years.

Senator ROBERTS: Are you aware of Mr James Parker’s submission?

Mrs Blicavs: No, I’m sorry.

Senator ROBERTS: It might be worth reading.

Mrs Blicavs: We will.

Senator ROBERTS: It’s very well done. If the 3G shutdown goes ahead, you’ve said it will be necessary to issue some grants to compensate business holders who have been disadvantaged by the shutdown. Taxpayers
would then, obviously, pay for this. Can I confirm that, in your opinion, it would be necessary for government to leave taxpayers with this bill if the government simply intervened and stopped the shutdown?

Mrs Blicavs: I think that’s an excellent question. The challenge that we have is the demand upon surveying right now with the housing crisis. We have a huge housing crisis. We need surveyors to keep building homes and the infrastructure that goes along with that. Just on my drive here today, I passed nearly a dozen surveyors out in the field doing infrastructure work as well as building homes. So we certainly need this equipment in order to do the job. As to how we undertake that, we’ll let the government decide whether the need to have 4G and 5G is more important than delivering on housing and infrastructure. If a delay can’t be held then a subsidy, we think, would be the best way to help us continue doing our work. We want to have continuous use of our equipment and be able to contact the necessary points that we need to contact. We’ll let the government make the decision about which is the best way. If the shutdown is going to happen, we think we need subsidy, or we risk even more of our businesses going out of business. Otherwise, a delay in the shutdown would be helpful for our financial needs.

Senator ROBERTS: So, either way, Australia pays for this decision, either in higher prices—higher surveyor charges—or in some form of subsidy.

Mrs Blicavs: Yes, that’s right. Unfortunately, building delays are just as costly, as are rebuilds after natural disasters. When the next floods or the next fires occur, it’s our surveyors who are the first ones on site with all of those scenarios, checking levels on floods and recovering damaged land after fires—and even checking where fires are going, through the equipment that they have. So surveyors are critical to everything that goes on in this country. There are only a few thousand of us, but we are critical. As to whether that’s a cost to the Australian people, personally I think it’s not a huge cost compared to many other professions and industries.

Senator ROBERTS: The last section of your submission says: “Support Needed”
We would like to see support provided though the federal budget to assist our industry to cope with this unexpected change.
If you read Mr Parker’s submission, you’ll find it’s probably a needless change, so that’ll make your blood boil.
That is just forewarning. Thank you.

New South Wales Government

At a Senate Inquiry we were told again and again that the 3G shutdown must be delayed unless it could be guaranteed no one would be worse off. This was a session with representatives from the NSW State government with very clear concerns about firefighting and connectivity for people in the bush.

I called on Minister Rowland to step in to stop the shutdown, and the response is still silence. 

Transcript

CHAIR: I’ll go to Senator Roberts next.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for appearing today, especially in person. It makes it so much more effective. Have you seen James Parker’s submission?

Mr Pickens: I have not been through the submission in detail, no. I was present earlier on when he was giving some of his evidence; I was here for that.

Senator ROBERTS: Did anything strike you or stick with you?

Mr Pickens: I think he’s got a lot of detail there about the actual technical characteristics of how mobile networks work with regard to circuit switched capabilities as opposed to voice over LTE. It will be very
interesting to hear the MNOs feedback on that tomorrow. I don’t think it’s necessarily a position that I should take as the New South Wales government to comment on the technical—

Senator ROBERTS: It’s an opinion, but I wasn’t asking for that. I just wanted to know if there was anything that struck you in that. You said there is a lot of material in there, and you haven’t read it in detail.
Mr Pickens: I haven’t read the submission itself. I was only here for some of his evidence earlier on.

Senator ROBERTS: This is from Mr Parker’s submission: Prior to being allowed to switch-off their networks the providers should be held to a Government specified standard for the number of compatible devices and minimum levels of coverage for those in remote and regional areas. That’s pretty much what you said in your first criteria, wasn’t it—no detrimental impact?

Mr Pickens: Absolutely.

Senator ROBERTS: Are you aware that France has extended its 3G until 2028?

Mr Pickens: I wasn’t aware of the 2028 date. I knew that most countries around the world are at this inflection point at the moment where they’re looking at what they need to do from a management perspective and are
therefore making those decisions around which technologies to continue and when to phase things in and out. But I wasn’t aware specifically of the 2028 date.

Senator ROBERTS: This is not a criticism of you or any other witness, but almost everything in James Parker’s submission took me by surprise. It really raised eyebrows with me. Have you done any communication
with overseas countries like Britain, France, South Africa that have postponed or deleted considerably by several years their cutting off?

Mr Pickens: No. We do liaise internationally on a range of topics, particularly on the adoption of broadband technology for public safety workers. We haven’t specifically talked about the topic of 3G shutdowns though.

Senator ROBERTS: Britain is actually keeping its 2G.

Mr Pickens: For the purposes of circuit switched voice, as I understand.

Senator ROBERTS: Do you know any other countries that are keeping 2G? Is America, for example?

Mr Pickens: No, I don’t.

Senator ROBERTS: From your submission it says: It is of primary importance to the NSW Government that its communities, services and industries, particularly those that currently rely exclusively on 3G networks, are not subjected to avoidable detrimental outcomes. Instead, they should be assured that they have a reasonable opportunity to adapt to, and benefit from, the generational advancement of long-term evolution … technologies without undue distress. The general evidence we’ve seen so far seems to indicate there are certainly going to be those detrimental outcomes if the shutdown proceeds. That would fly in the face of your first concern about no detrimental impacts that can be prevented.

Mr Pickens: Sorry, I’m not sure of the conflict there.

Senator ROBERTS: It seems there will be detrimental outcomes if this shutdown proceeds, and that would go against your first concern—that you want to avoid preventable detrimental impacts, especially safety.

Mr Pickens: We’re calling out that we don’t want there to be any detrimental impacts by the shutdown of the networks and also, from a digital inclusion perspective, that we want to ensure all communities, wherever they are across the state, have the opportunity to benefit from technologies. While, it’s great if we can actually keep the whole state moving in terms of having greater equity and parity of the technology that is available to those communities, if there is no meaningful coverage solution for them, they shouldn’t be adversely impacted from a safety perspective by shutting off the network now. So, as long as the networks can actually provide that equivalency of coverage, then allowing the adoption of newer technologies is certainly something that we would advocate for and like to see happen to close that digital divide.

Senator ROBERTS: How would you hold the telcos accountable? Once it’s done, it’s done. It’s not, ‘Whoops, we made a mistake.’ There are detrimental outcomes.

Mr Pickens: I think there needs to be, potentially, a greater level of direct community engagement to understand which devices are being used within the coverage footprint of that broadcast tower. Once they actually
understand that and can have a more targeted approach to device replacement, essentially, then the guarantees, if you like, or the number of people who could potentially be adversely impacted by it will be reduced greatly. Senator ROBERTS: The way you’ve stated that sounds to me like that responsibility should be on the telcos to assess that.

Mr Pickens: Government definitely has an obligation to do that, and we, as New South Wales, have been engaging through campaigns, through Service NSW, for example, to try and increase the awareness of this risk.
There certainly needs to be a significant communication program by the MNOs themselves. They’re the ones who actually have the customers attached to their networks and would be best placed to understand the scale of the problem that exists on a tower-by-tower basis almost, from a location perspective, and have targeted ways of approaching that.

Senator ROBERTS: Are you flagging that issue—this may be verging on opinion—as a concern of yours or as something that you must insist on?

Mr Pickens: We look for the assurance that the coverage equivalency has been met, essentially. So if we can get that feedback through—and that hasn’t been provided yet. We still do have concerns about parts of the state that haven’t yet had their upgrades through and that 3G coverage has been overbuilt by the 4G or 5G. So, until those fears are allayed, it’s certainly something that we would flag as an outstanding action.

Senator ROBERTS: If those are not completed by next month, there should be an extension of 3G?

Mr Pickens: Absolutely.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you; that was clear. In your submission you touched on the importance of mobile networks when it comes to bushfires and floods. Could you please expand a bit more on that and how 3G plays a role?

Mr Pickens: Absolutely. For our emergency service workers as well as communities who have been impacted by fires and floods, what we’ve seen, certainly from the 2019-20 bushfires and then flooding that we had
subsequently, is that the reliance on access to mobile telecommunications is absolutely paramount, not just for communities but for emergency service organisations themselves.

Senator ROBERTS: So lives are at stake if it’s not—

Mr Pickens: If people cannot communicate effectively, if they can’t call triple 0, for example, because either they’re using a handset that can’t do it or they’ve lost coverage because a 3G footprint no longer exists, then, yes, lives are at stake.

Senator ROBERTS: Your submission stated that Transport for NSW service delivery was on track to convert all services from 3G by 30 June 2024. Was that deadline met, or are there still any conversions outstanding?

Mr Pickens: No. We believe that earlier this year they only had about 1,800 to go and they were still on track to have them completed by the start of this month. So we’re not aware of any lingering issues for Transport.

Senator ROBERTS: We’ve had two conflicting opinions on what I’m about to ask you. Does the map of 3G range exceed or understate the actual 3G? In other words, will you get 3G outside the specified range from
Telstra?

Mr Pickens: I believe it’s unlikely.

Senator ROBERTS: Was the conversion work by Transport for NSW to transition all of those services off 3G a significant cost?

Mr Pickens: I’ll take that on notice. I don’t have costs for Transport.

Senator ROBERTS: That was one agency. Have you got any indication whether the process has been replicated across all of New South Wales state government?

Mr Pickens: We did reach out. As I said, we were leading an all-of-government submission. The only feedback that we had of note was from Transport. Subsequently, we got additional information from some of the
emergency service organisations, but I don’t have anything more substantial that I can offer in response to that.

Senator ROBERTS: What about other state governments? Do you liaise with them? Can you tell us how they’re doing or give us a rough indication?

Mr Pickens: I can’t comment specifically about other states, but I am aware that we’ve all been going through a similar process to understand the risks of 3G shutdown.

Senator ROBERTS: I’m not asking you to talk on behalf of a specific state, but your answer is fine. If you allow me to paraphrase, you’ve said in your submission that, if the telcos don’t do everything that they need to
make sure no-one is left behind, the federal government should intervene. Given you made your submission in May and it’s now the end of July, have you seen enough over the last three months? Are you satisfied that the telcos aren’t going to leave anyone who relies on 3G behind?

Mr Pickens: No, I’m not satisfied about that. I believe that there is still more work to be done in terms of guaranteeing that the device types of concern, where they can’t make triple 0 calls, for example, have been
sufficiently removed from networks. I also haven’t seen enough to confidently suggest that the coverage footprint is going to be equivalent with what’s been offered by the MNOs so far. So, if that can’t be provided, then we believe that the shutdown should be done, as I’ve mentioned previously, in a phased location-by-location approach, where that’s appropriate, so that they can derisk that as much as possible.

Senator ROBERTS: Do you see any danger in keeping the 3G network operating for longer?

Mr Pickens: ‘Danger’ isn’t the word that I would’ve chosen, which is why I clarified it. There are service quality benefits to having newer technologies. Some of the feedback that we’re getting from emergency service
workers is that the need for more data-hungry capabilities, like video, for example, is something that they’re very keen to explore. As and when that technology can be used effectively, they’d be very keen to adopt that. so it’s not a danger necessarily—that I can foresee—to keep 3G on for longer, but it’s a delayed benefit of some of the other services.

Senator ROBERTS: So there’s a cost, not a danger. What is the cost involved in operating 3G longer? Have you approached Telstra, for example, or any of the telcos or have they approached you about discussing keeping 3G open longer?

Mr Pickens: We’ve had conversations with all carriers about their plans for—

Senator ROBERTS: Did you initiate them?

Mr Pickens: Yes, we did. We haven’t specifically put to them what the cost of keeping 3G open longer would be, so I can’t comment on that specifically. But we have had conversations with all the carriers about their plans.

Senator ROBERTS: From your experience then, what are some of the things that would affect that cost? Is it the maintenance cost? Is it the cost of new parts coming for old machines?

Mr Pickens: Yes, there are parts. There is network equipment that is 3G specific only, so there will be a cost inherent with that, in terms of maintenance, support and so on.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you.

The Government has exhausted its ideas for implementing the Murray Darling Basin Plan. The Albanese Labor Government has been in office for over two years now and implementing the MDB Plan was one of their key election promises. This implies that they should have had a clear strategy in place even before coming into government. Fast forward two years,    Parliament provides the legislative framework to complete the plan—legislation that should have reflected their intended program.

Yet that’s not what happened. When I inquired about the lack of specifics in the government’s “Restoring our Rivers” draft framework, the response made it clear that no real thought had gone into the plan or the legislation they introduced. After reading the “framework” and hearing the Department’s explanations, my belief is reinforced that the government has no real plan, other than to buy back large amounts of water from farmers. It seems they are deliberately delaying any announcement of buybacks until after the election.

Towards the end of this session, I inquired about the socio-economic test that had previously been applied to all water projects to ensure they did not adversely affect rural communities. This test was abolished under the Plibersek legislation and replaced with a meaningless statement. Their response made it clear that the test would no longer prevent bad projects. Instead, it was substituted with lip service and a small allocation of funds for minor community projects, which falls far short of addressing the real socio-economic damage caused by water purchases.

Transcript | Part 1

Senator ROBERTS: How much has been spent on the Restoring Our Rivers draft framework so far? After two years in office, I expected a more detailed and transparent document than this.  

Ms O’Connell: The Restoring Our Rivers framework followed the amendments to the basin plan and Water Act at the very end of last calendar year. That’s a framework released on 29 January, earlier this year, to go through and explain how we’re proposing to deliver the 450 gigalitres. It was released with a range of principles and programs around the delivery of the 450, and released for consultation. With the new legislation there’s an expanded time frame to the end of 2027 to deliver the 450. This is an important consultation document that was released early to seek views and public consultations on how we’re going to go about delivering that 450 gigalitres. We had over 100 submissions. We had lots of consultations with representative groups. At the same time as releasing that framework for consultation we did open one of the programs. That program is our water recovery infrastructure program, which is state led. It was launched on 29 January, and that’s an opportunity for basin states to bring forward water-saving infrastructure projects. So, that’s actual projects to be delivered. Those projects would include off-farm projects, on the property and non-farm projects. That’s a program that opened on 29 January. 

Senator ROBERTS: This document came out in January this year; that’s what you’re saying?  

Ms O’Connell: The Restoring Our Rivers draft framework document?  

Senator ROBERTS: That’s it.  

Ms O’Connell: It followed the changes to the legislation. That’s the important thing. The legislation changed at the end of November.  The legislation passed parliament at the end of November and commenced on 7 December.  

Senator ROBERTS: I would have thought there would have been a lot of work put into that legislation. I’m assuming there was, but I’m amazed at the lack of any real data in this plan or draft framework. It suggests to me that the department is flat out of ideas. It’s like nobody cares anymore. Just buy what we need in water buybacks and destroy the bush and call the job done. Minister, are you stalling for an election rather than upsetting people now with buybacks?  

Ms O’Connell: When that framework was released, we also opened a program—not something for consultation, an actual program—for state-led infrastructure projects to come forward to be proposed.  The framework is, as it says, a framing document. It articulates three proposed programs. The first program that Ms O’Connell refers to, the Resilient Rivers Water Infrastructure Program, is supported by a range of extensive guideline documents, which are available on our website. There are discussions going on with states about getting access to what I think is almost half a billion dollars worth of funding. We have been consulting extensively in relation to another proposed program under the framework, which is a sustainable communities program. Once the results of consultation have been taken on board and that program commences, additional information and guidance around that program will also be published on the website. The third proposed program is in relation to a proposed voluntary water purchase, and the same thing will occur there. It’s a framing document to articulate a range of proposed programs across a variety of recovery tools.  

Senator ROBERTS: It just seems that it’s lacking in data and detail. It just seems light on. But thank you for your answers. Minister, the draft plan actually proposes on page 16 to count the water overpurchases towards the 450 gigalitres. Minister, will you give an undertaking to do exactly that?  

Senator McAllister: I think it is dependent on understanding what any overrecovery might have involved and officials can give you an update on how the system works to produce an evaluation of the state of play, for want of a better term.  

Ms Connell: Currently, there are approximately 78 gigalitres of overcovered water across the northern and southern basins. In terms of being able to count that amount of water towards the 450 gigalitre target, some of those catchments are in New South Wales and they’re in catchments for which water resource plans are yet to be accredited. To be able to determine what the final overrecovery amount is requires the water resource plan to be accredited and for the MDBA to have assessed and verified the modelling so we can have the assurance of exactly where the overrecovered amount falls. We expect to be in a situation across all of the relevant catchments—and I think there are about seven or eight where there are overrecoveries—where work is completed by the MDBA by about June next year.  

Senator ROBERTS: We’re waiting on some of the New South Wales valleys, I understand?  

Ms Connell: That’s correct.  In earlier evidence today, there are six remaining water resource plans to be accredited out of the 20 for New South Wales. There is a dependence there, as my colleague outlined.  

Senator ROBERTS: I can understand you’re not making a commitment without those plans, but assuming the plans are in place then overrecovery will be counted as part of the 450?  

Ms Connell: The draft framework contemplates that exact situation, and we’re in the process of assessing. We got over 100 submissions and they’re of a really high detailed quality. We recently released a report which digests all of that consultation feedback. That’s been now put on the public record. The next step is to publish the final framework. The final framework will set out the government’s proposed approach in relation to overrecoveries.  

Senator ROBERTS: How is the government implementing the Productivity Commission’s recommendations on a new approach to water recovery while also meeting the legislated requirements to consider the socioeconomic impacts on river communities? 

Ms Connell: As you refer to, the Productivity Commission released its, I think, second implementation inquiry into the basin plan, which was published this year. It had a range of recommendations and many of those recommendations have actually been implemented or acted upon in terms of securing the Our Rivers legislation. Then there are a range of other initiatives that the government is undertaking to implement those recommendations. There’s quite a number of them. If there’s a specific recommendation you’re interested in, I’m happy to give you an answer about that one.  

Senator ROBERTS: Can you give me an overview of how the government is implementing the Productivity Commission’s recommendations?  

Ms Connell: The first key critical step to deal with the range of issues the Productivity Commission raised was actually the passage of the Restoring Our Rivers legislation. The Productivity Commission released its interim report while the legislation was in parliament and progressing through parliament. A lot of the amendments moved in the House of Representatives and in the Senate went to addressing issues in the Productivity Commission report. Time Frame extensions were a key issue the Productivity Commission raised. They called out, as many reports have over the last couple of years in terms of basin plan progress, that more time was required. That was a key component of the legislation. They called out the fact that the 450 gigalitre target would require water purchase. Voluntary water purchase is one of the pathways for recovery. They noted that was more cost-effective relative to infrastructure projects. One of the key elements of the Restoring Our Rivers Act was to make water purchase a feasible pathway.  

Senator ROBERTS: What about in relation to meeting the legislated requirement to consider the socioeconomic impacts on river communities?  

Ms Connell: The legislation included several reforms in relation to that proposal. Firstly, there’s a requirement for a third independent review of the WESA. Unlike the first two reviews, the third review has to actually look at socioeconomic impacts on basin communities. The minister is now also required to consider the social and economic impacts on basin communities of a proposed water purchase program before she launches a water purchase program. There is quite a range of initiatives in relation to socioeconomic impacts.  

Significantly, more broadly, there are three principles that guide overall water recovery. The first of those is enhanced environmental outcomes. The second is minimising socioeconomic impacts, and the third is achieving value for money. So, there’s an overall set of principles.  

I will just note one of the key recommendations of the commission—I think it’s recommendation 2.4—was that in terms of water recovery the government should take a staged and gradual approach and it should provide adjustment assistance to communities to deal with proposed water purchase. As Ms O’Connell said, that’s at the core of the draft framework. One of the three pillars, if you like, is looking at socioeconomic impacts, and one of the responses to that is the establishment of a sustainable communities program. The purpose of that program will be to provide adjustment assistance to communities.  

Senator ROBERTS: I’ll come back to that later. Why has the government not released the Water Recovery Strategy foreshadowed by the Productivity Commission? Six months after the passage of the restoring our rivers bill, why do we only have a draft framework lacking in detail?  

Ms Connell: As I said earlier, the draft framework foreshadows three programs. One of those programs is a water purchase program. When the government moves to commence water purchase, it will release the document that the Productivity Commission refers to.  The legislation passed at the end of November. The framework was released at the end of January, so not long after. It’s important that we go out and consult on these matters. There’s a huge amount of interest. That’s what we were doing, consulting.  

Senator ROBERTS: When will the feedback on the government’s draft framework on recovering the additional 450 gigs be made available?  

Ms O’Connell: That I think was actually published on our website yesterday. I’m happy to table a copy—  

Senator ROBERTS: Yesterday? That’s a funny thing. Pardon me for being a bit—what’s the word?  

Senator Payman: Cynical.  

Senator ROBERTS: No, not quite ‘cynical’. Sceptical maybe. A number of things were published right before the day of standard estimates scheduled hearings. Anyway, that’s good. Thank you.  

Senator McAllister: I suppose the counterfactual is that if it’s not published then you don’t have the opportunity to examine it. You’re very welcome to ask questions about the material that’s in the public domain.  

Ms O’Connell: If it’s useful, we can table the link so that you can go to it, but it is on our website. 

CHAIR: Last question, Senator Roberts, before we rotate the call.  

Senator ROBERTS: Has the department met with industry groups collectively regarding feedback on this draft framework for the additional 450 gigalitres, and where will it come from?  

Ms O’Connell: Yes, there’s been extensive consultation as part of the framework being out there—as I said, over 100 submissions. But we can also go through and talk to you about the discussions with groups that we’ve had, the consultations that we’ve done and webinars that we’ve had.  The nature of the consultation and the groups we consulted with are set out in the document we’ve published. We’ve held many workshops over the last six months with industry groups and peak stakeholder groups, and we’ve met quite a few times with the basin community committee. We’ve had discussions with particular sectors within industry—the rice sector and the dairy sector.  

Senator ROBERTS: Are those workshops online?  

Ms Connell: Predominantly, but we’ve also had face-to-face meetings and meetings out in the basin. So, through a range of different consultation mechanisms and including public webinars.  

Senator ROBERTS: How many online and how many—  

CHAIR: Senator Roberts, we’re now going to have to rotate the call.  

Senator ROBERTS: If I could just follow up on that. How many face-to-face workshops and how many online?  

Ms Connell: I’d have to take that on notice—  

Senator ROBERTS: If you could, please.  

Ms Connell: to give you that answer.  

Transcript | Part 2

Senator ROBERTS: Ms O’Connell or Ms Connell—  

Ms O’Connell: I know—they’re very similar names.  

Senator ROBERTS: Well, for the one with the ‘O’ or the one without the ‘O’, you said the plan water numbers were online. My office is pretty good at surfing the internet, but they clicked right through the website and couldn’t find it. Could you send that link, please, that you offered?  

Ms O’Connell: Yes. Just to be clear, that’s the link on the report on the 450 gigalitre framework consultation?  

Senator ROBERTS: Yes, and the water quantities.  

Ms Connell: The overrecoveries?  

Senator ROBERTS: Yes.  

Ms Connell: We can provide you with that information.  

Senator ROBERTS: How is the government implementing the Productivity Commission’s recommendation on transparency and accountability for basin plan decisions? We’ve got a few here about the ACT. What information has the government released about the Australian Capital Territory Bridging the Gap project announced on 3 April?  

Ms O’Connell: There was a press release on the ACT Bridging the Gap. The date of that release was 3 April 2024. There was a joint media release on ACT fulfilling its water recovery commitments under the MurrayDarling Basin Plan Bridging the Gap.  

Senator ROBERTS: Has there been any more information?  

Ms O’Connell: We’re happy to provide you with more information.  

Mr Southwell: The FFA, the Federation Funding Agreement, that relates to that matter has been published on the Department of Treasury’s website.  

Senator ROBERTS: The Department of Treasury?  

Mr Southwell: It’s a website for federal financial relations and FFA is there.  

Senator ROBERTS: There are so many bureaucracies and so many departments. That’s fine.  

Mr Southwell: That’s where all of the FFAs have to be published. That relates to the minister’s press release. The FFA itself was executed on 14 March when the ACT signed it, and that provided the $58 million for the 6.36 gigalitres of water that the arrangement related to.  

Senator ROBERTS: So, 6.3 gigalitres, did you say?  

Mr Southwell: 6.36 gigalitres.  

Senator ROBERTS: That was to be my next question. Now my next question instead is: how much per megalitre was paid to the ACT, including previous payments?  

Mr Southwell: This FFA is $58.83 million for the 6.36 gigalitres, and that works out at $9,250 a megalitre.  

Senator ROBERTS: What part of the ACT is the water being recovered from?  

Mr Southwell: The FFA itself doesn’t require specific components from the ACT. The ACT has said that they will use the money received to implement long-term water management changes, including water sensitive urban design activities, incentivising community change to reduce water use and water quality improvement activities.  

Senator ROBERTS: So, no specific water was released?  

Mr Southwell: I think it’s called the Halls Gap site—the Lower Molonglo. 

Senator DAVEY: Only state—  

Mr Southwell: No. The transfer of entitlements has occurred. It is with the Commonwealth Environmental Water Holder. The Commonwealth received a licence of 6.36 gigalitres. That comprised 4.9 towards Bridging the Gap, and an additional 1.46 gigalitres of water towards broader basin plan outcomes. That water has since been specified by Minister Plibersek as being held environmental water to contribute towards the 450 gigalitre target.  

Senator ROBERTS: The water is no longer going to the ACT?  

Mr Southwell: That water is now held by the Commonwealth Environmental Water Holder, that entitlement.  

Senator ROBERTS: Is it water that’s actually being held or is it water that will be held due to savings in the future? I didn’t quite understand.  

Mr Southwell: The entitlement has been transferred now.  

Senator ROBERTS: Okay.  

Mr Southwell: It’s with the Commonwealth Environmental Water Holder. Dr Banks: I can confirm that water entitlement was registered on 18 April to the Commonwealth’s environmental water holdings.  

Senator ROBERTS: So, part of that was part of the efficiency measures towards the additional 450 gig?  

Mr Southwell: 1.46 gigalitres. ACT identified that they could deliver 6.36. Their gap that was remaining for Bridging the Gap—4.9. That’s been met in full. So, the ACT no longer has a gap. With the additional 1.46, that has now been determined as contributing towards the 450 gigalitres, which means 1.46 gigalitres less that has to be recovered elsewhere.  

Senator ROBERTS: When or how did officials agree to this socioeconomic criteria for the funding?  

Mr Southwell: The department evaluated the offer that was made from the ACT. We provided advice to the minister, a comprehensive assessment around the water and the value that it represented and its contribution towards the basin plan, and provided advice to the minister accordingly.  

Senator ROBERTS: I appreciate your answers being so direct and clear. Is that publicly available, that information?  

Mr Southwell: The evaluation?  

Senator ROBERTS: Yes.  

Mr Southwell: No.  

Senator ROBERTS: Can we get a copy of it on notice.  

Mr Southwell: On notice.  

Senator ROBERTS: We’re six months out from the passage of the restoring our rivers bill. Have any new SDLAM projects been started? Mr Ward: No new projects have been started. But as I mentioned earlier in the day, we’re working very closely with our basin state colleagues on identifying ideas and progressing them forward. There were seven that were shortlisted by the basin officials committee earlier this year for the states to undertake further development of those, and the information on that is published on our department website.  Have any decisions been made on new SDLAM projects?  

Ms O’Connell: Not by basin officials committees yet. There are prospective projects being worked on. We anticipate—and I gave this evidence earlier today—that New South Wales will be bringing forward a new project soon. They have advised us they intend bringing forward a new project soon and then basin officials will have a look at that.  

Senator ROBERTS: What timeline is likely for new SDLAM projects?  

Ms O’Connell: It really depends on the project in terms of how long it takes to deliver the project. The delivery timeframe for all SDLAM projects, which applies to new ones, is— Mr Ward: There are three key dates. New projects have to be notified by basin officials by 30 June 2025. States then have until 30 June 2026 to either amend or withdraw projects, and then all projects must be in operation on 31 December 2026.  

Senator ROBERTS: I take it it’s too early to determine what the likely volumetric outcome is, much too early?  

Ms O’Connell: Correct. It is a tight timeframe, as my colleague outlined. 

Mr McConville: If I may add, the reconciliation process will occur, in terms of your question around volumes, after December 2026. The MDBA will be required to do a reconciliation after that.  

Senator ROBERTS: Socioeconomic considerations—how is the government intending to meet the requirements to consider socioeconomic impacts of buybacks when it has such an unrealistic target, in my opinion, of recovery of 100 gigalitres per annum?  

Ms Connell: As the draft framework makes clear, considering socioeconomic impacts needs to be a key consideration in each water recovery pathway. It really depends on the option being pursued, whether it’s infrastructure, rules based or voluntary water purchase. But I can talk in more detail about the work that we’re doing and the investigations we’re undertaking in relation to potential water purchase. We’re undertaking a range of work. There was a quite significant investigation into socioeconomic impacts of the basin plan quite a few years ago chaired by Robbie Sefton. She chaired a panel. The advice of the Sefton report was, given that there are really quite complex drivers of socioeconomic impacts in the basin—climate, drought, technology, labour inputs, energy inputs—it’s important to look at multiple lines of inquiry to develop the evidence base. So we’re doing a couple of things. We’re looking back. We’ve got the benefit of a range of reports that have been undertaken looking at socioeconomic impacts of water recovery options over the last couple of years. AITHER has done some work for the Murray-Darling Basin Authority, which has been a key reference point for us. Marsden Jacobs Associates, another firm, did quite detailed investigations for the Sefton review, and New South Wales has recently published a report which we’ve had reference to as well. I guess the other key significant thing that we’re doing is most of those reports find that it’s quite hard to actually pull apart what impacts water recovery has on regional communities, and it’s important to have a discussion with communities to involve them in those issues. One of the key elements of the consultation we did around the draft framework was to seek very specific feedback about past experience of water recovery programs, past experience of community adjustment programs, and we’re pulling that all together. We’ll also be drawing on advice from ABARES.  

Senator ROBERTS: My understanding is that it used to be the requirement that we must have a socioeconomic benefit. Now it comes down to, at the top of page 18 of your draft framework report, the ‘Sustainable Communities program will seek to mitigate unavoidable socioeconomic impacts’.  

Ms Connell: That’s right.  

Senator ROBERTS: Let’s change the target.  

Ms Connell: Our first order approach is to prioritise a non-water purchase option. We’ve talked quite a bit today about the fact that the infrastructure program opened in January and then the other kind of core program under the framework is the Sustainable Communities program. We’ve been working really quite intensively with stakeholders to get feedback on a draft of principles to guide how funding for community adjustment should be directed. So, we’ve received really quite extensive and clear feedback. There are seven principles that will form the foundation of the community adjustment program. The feedback largely supported each of those principles. Many of them were very strongly supported. There was a strong emphasis from local councils in particular. They’ve been closely engaged in the design of any community adjustment principles. So, that is something we will be definitely taking on board. We’re currently working with basin states to look at getting funding arrangements in place so that funding can flow in the new financial year. 

Transcript | Part 3

CHAIR: Senator Roberts.  

Senator ROBERTS: The draft framework for delivering the additional 450 gigalitres per year outlined in the restoring our rivers bill provided more funding towards finalising the basin plan, but the budget indicated this funding was not for publication. How much funding is required?  

Ms O’Connell: As you mentioned, the budget papers say that it is not for publication, and the reason for that is there will be potential for competitive tendering. You wouldn’t normally publish the figures prior to going to a tender.  

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. I accept that.  

Ms O’Connell: So it’s not for publication.  

Senator ROBERTS: What provision will be made to support the river communities that will be impacted by water recovery?  

Ms Connell: We spoke about that a bit earlier this afternoon. The framework describes a Sustainable Communities program that’s for community adjustment. The funding will go through states under federal financial agreements. The proposal is for a specific standalone program focused on supporting communities that need support to adjust, and for that funding to be provided through states who are best placed to work with local communities to build on their existing regional stakeholder engagement networks, and also to build on existing funding that’s going into those particular communities that need to be the focus.  

Senator ROBERTS: So federal funding through the states?  

Ms Connell: Funding under FFAs, federal funding agreements.  

Senator ROBERTS: Minister, this seems to be a continuation of the undeclared war on farmers. I’ve been to Dirranbandi in Southern Queensland, the border community there, and the same applies to Northern New South Wales. Senator Davey, I’m sure, will be concerned as well. Who gets the land after you drive farmers off? A lot of farmers have been driven off in Dirranbandi and other places. Who is going to use this land once you get rid of the farmers? For what purpose will they use it?  

Senator McAllister: I don’t accept the scenarios that you set out in your question. Nor do I accept your characterisation of our posture towards Australian agricultural communities. Our view is that a sustainable basin, a healthy working river, is essential to underwrite the future of food and fibre production in this country, to underwrite the future of regional towns that depend, as has been discussed earlier today, on adequate supplies of clean drinking water, and also to protect our environmental assets in the basin. We think those three things are compatible with one another and, in fact, interdependent. The approach we’re taking is working through a difficult and challenging reform. It now looks like it will be a multidecade reform. It’s one that’s been going on for many years. It requires cooperation between the states and the territories and the Commonwealth. It has been bipartisan. Regrettably, not very much progress was made in the decade that the coalition was in office. But in the two years we’ve been in government we have set about looking at the progress that’s been made so far, what more needs to be done and putting in place the legislative arrangements, the financial arrangements and the implementation arrangements, to implement the basin plan in full.  

Senator ROBERTS: Have you heard of the rewilding plan that’s part of the United Nations Agenda 2030 as it is now? It was exposed in the United States. There are similar concepts here.  

Senator McAllister: You’ll have to table the United Nations documentation. I haven’t seen that documentation.  

Senator ROBERTS: What about hollowing out the bush? I’ve been to Moulamein in southern New South Wales and northern Victoria. What about compensation to supermarkets, small businesses in the areas who will all lose business with the water that’s going to be taken, and with that lose the critical mass necessary to keep these towns going? Football teams are dying; sporting clubs are dying. What about the compensation for the people who are not on the land but who depend upon the people on the land?  

Senator McAllister: Over the course of today we’ve had a few discussions about socioeconomic impacts, some of them in response to questions from yourself. I think you heard Ms Connor speak earlier about some of the research that’s occurred already about the multiple drivers of change in Australian rural communities. You’ve also heard Ms O’Connell and Ms Connor speak about the approach to socioeconomic assessment in terms of any decisions that might be taken. You have, thirdly, heard just now a description of the approach that’s proposed in terms of working with the states and territories to provide support for communities. I’m not sure how further to respond to your questions, but I do think a lot of information has been provided over the course of the day about the way we’re thinking about these challenges in implementing the plan in full—something I believe continues to have bipartisan support, as confirmed by Senators Davey and Ruston earlier.  

Senator ROBERTS: What is the total cost estimate to complete the basin plan?  

Mr Dadswell: Current public commitments to the basin plan are around $13 billion. That’s over the life of the plan, over the last 12 years. There’s about—  

Senator ROBERTS: So that includes past—  

Mr Dadswell: Yes, past programs and existing, and including the ones from the 2024-25 budget. There’s around $3 billion in publicly stated funding that remains against that $13 billion to be spent.  

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. 

The Export Control Amendment (Ending Live Sheep Exports by Sea) Bill 2024 aims to end live sheep exports from Australia by May 2028. This bill, despite offering $107 million in compensation for rural and regional communities, fails to adequately address the economic impact on the sheep export industry and local communities.

The bill is seen as a pretext for further restrictions, potentially extending to live cattle exports, under the guise of animal welfare. This will harm Aboriginal communities reliant on cattle farming and exacerbate economic hardships in rural areas.

The bill’s flawed consultation process and ideologically driven policies overlook the real impacts on people and communities. It will cause significant losses for farmers, disrupt food supply chains, and benefit city-based animal welfare activists while ignoring the human cost.

Transcript

Keep the sheep! Keep humans! We need to stop this live export ban. There are no grounds for it. We’ve seen a truncated, sham inquiry. The Labor Party has not gone out and listened. They’re just pushing the Greens ideology to get the Greens voters’ preferences in inner-city electorates. What about the effect on the human environment: the devastation to local communities and to people overseas who need food and good animal protein? 

The Export Control Amendment (Ending Live Sheep Exports by Sea) Bill 2024 amends the Export Control Act 2020 to prohibit the export of live sheep by sea from Australia on 1 May 2028. The bill also includes money to paper over the cracks—the devastation that this measure will cause to rural and regional communities—for a limited period. That money is going to be made available only under severe limits. One would have thought that providing that money anyway, to assist in an orderly transition in a suitable timeframe, would have made more sense. Then, again, sense has no place in the feelings driven policy development from the Albanese Labor government—political, not economic—regardless of the impact on humans. 

As it stands, the $107 million fund is little compensation for an industry that generates $120 million a year directly and hundreds of millions more in flow-on effects to rural communities. Of the money, $60 million will be used to lay the groundwork for the next round of the government’s plan, which is to eliminate live cattle exports. Specifically, the mechanism is the specious animal welfare argument, including welfare of animals in transport. Sheep and cattle welfare during transport will be used as an excuse to limit the movement of animals. 

Who benefits substantially from that trade? It’s not the Aboriginal communities in remote areas of Australia who currently support themselves raising cattle and then need to transport their cattle a long distance to get them to market. This transport welfare measure will remove the opportunity for Aboriginal communities to support themselves, in turn making those communities reliant—dependent—on government handouts. Aboriginal communities are heavily represented in red meat production. In areas of Western Australia, they will be devastated by the loss of this trade. The industry is attracting homeless from the cities, coming bush in search of work and accommodation. 

What a high price everyday Australians in rural areas are paying for the dirty deal from the Labor government for preferences from animal welfare groups and the Greens. Labor can’t, and doesn’t, deny this dirty deal. The announcement of Labor’s policy on live animal exports came not from Labor but from one of the animal welfare groups. This bill lets city activists pat themselves on the back while ignoring the animal and human suffering caused by this ill-informed and poorly consulted bill resulting from a sham, partial inquiry that didn’t consult everyone. 

While the government talks about the bill being a product of consultation, the process was one of working backward from the desired outcome: how can we be seen to get this outcome? The correct process, according to the Office of Impact Analysis, is to conduct ‘meaningful consultation that considers the views of affected stakeholders’. That’s not what happened. As I said, it was a sham inquiry in the lower house. The National Farmers Federation submitted to the committee that they had to fight each step of the way for producers to have a fair hearing with the independent panel. The National Farmers Federation saw the industry’s advice to the panel go unheeded in the final report. What was the point? 

Then we saw the minister go even further, rejecting key elements of the panel’s advice and adopting even more radical ideas than the panel itself had recommended. Welcome to government under the Labor Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese MP! Ideology and dodgy preference deals with ill-informed fanatics is how the Labor Party rolls. To hell with the human devastation! Look good; don’t do good. The entire consultation and parliamentary process is a mockery of due process. It’s an indictment of those in this chamber who go along with this sham for reasons that escape me. The Greens of course want to cause more hardship among the red meat industry with their amendment from Senator Faruqi—if successful, bringing this bill forward to 2026. I’ll bet that’s the deal done between the Greens and the Labor Party: to bring it forward to 2026 and set immediate limits to export. 

Sheep have a five-month gestation and need to grow for seven months before export. This means that sheep that are under gestation now will not be able to be exported under the Greens amendment unless markets can be found at the last minute. The parent animals were bred specifically for the export trade, and these will be bound for the abattoir. Meat contracts are let out years ahead because of the breeding cycle. So, selling these animals is not likely. In fact, the cull has already started, with prices as low as 50c a kilogram, through the saleyards in Western Australia, and many lots are unsold, causing farmers to leave unsold animals at the saleyards for euthanasia. Perhaps city senators like Senator Faruqi and Senator Tyrrell, who is in support, can come over to Western Australia and help with the cull, look these farmers in the eye, look these sheep in the eye. 

The idea that this bill and the Greens amendment is predicated on humane treatment of animals is Orwellian doublespeak. It will have the reverse effect. Rural communities are being hollowed out as a result of the policies of the Labor-Greens government. The endgame is to move protein consumption to lab-grown meat owned by Prime Minister Albanese’s friends Bill Gates and BlackRock’s Larry Fink, whom the Prime Minister has met with during this parliamentary term. Farmers have no place in the Labor-Greens vision of a dystopian world of fake meats and fake food. This bill denies the truth that live sheep exports suffer a loss of life at exactly the same levels as animals in the field, if not better. The object of this bill is not the welfare of animals; it’s an ideological objection to a diet that includes red meat—ideology over humanity. And what of the land currently under grazing? Well, I’m sure the climate carpetbaggers are already out in the bush measuring up for solar panels. Beautiful countryside will be covered in silicon cancer, and somehow this is environmentally friendly? The Labor-Greens government is not fit to govern. 

I want to pass on some personal thoughts from Senator Pauline Hanson, who was in Western Australia recently to listen, and the farmers spontaneously invited her to speak off the back of a truck. As Pauline does and as I do, she did so. The farmers mentioned the independent study that was done—no deaths on ships. Of course, other senators have mentioned the MV Awassi Express, on which was perpetrated the cash-for-cruelty scam: hundreds of thousands of dollars apparently paid to a foreign stockman from a developing nation to treat animals cruelly, to kill an industry—and that’s what Labor did, fell for it, killing an industry, the damage to farmers, communities and nation already done: 100,000 sheep especially bred for the live export overseas market, not suitable for the local market, as I’ve said. The market for live sheep is already down because overseas buyers are looking elsewhere. They know what’s coming from this government. They’ve seen the socialists operating, and they’re seeking other suppliers. It hurts farmers across the whole of Australia, because, for example, Tasmanian sheep farmers are sending sheep to WA to make up shipments. 

Remember the Gillard Labor government’s cattle export ban? It belted the whole of Australia’s beef grazing industry—the whole country. It had effects everywhere, because of the flow-on. Farmers told Senator Hanson in Western Australia recently, ‘We’ll have to shoot the animals we especially bred.’ She told me about the look in their eyes—shattered for the waste of the animals they cared for. Communities over there are worried about farmers’ mental health. If the government has any humanity, it won’t force the farmers to shoot their own animals; the government can kill the sheep. 

Here’s a question for government. The European Union is the world’s biggest exporter of sheep, not Australia. What free trade agreements has Australia signed with the European Union? Has this Albanese Labor government done an agreement with the European Union? We’ve all seen so-called free trade. It’s not fair trade at all. It hurts our country. We’ve seen that from both sides of the uniparty, Labor and the Liberal-Nationals. As I’ve said, the real reason for shutting down this export industry is to get Greens’ votes and preferences in inner-city eastern electorates. 

I want to talk briefly about why I’m very pro human, and I’ve spoken about it many times. I need to counter 80 years of anti-human propaganda, especially that of the last 60 years since the Club of Rome got into bed together with the United Nations and then the World Economic Forum, all to control people, to control property and to transfer wealth. There are three or four main assumptions that this anti-human campaign propagates. Firstly, they say humans don’t care. We’ll talk about that in a minute. They say we’re greedy, rapacious, uncaring and irresponsible—we just don’t care. 

Secondly, they say humans are destroying our planet when, in fact, the reverse is true. They say civilisation is the environment’s enemy. They say civilisation and the environment are mutually exclusive. I’ll address that in a minute. They say civilisation and the environment are incompatible, so we need to cease development—because that’s what they want: they want to stop human development. Senior leaders of the United Nations and the World Economic Forum, including the late Maurice Strong, have said that. They want to deindustrialise Western civilisation. They say our duty is to protect our planet. They say nothing about humans. They imply that humans need to be sacrificed for that. 

Here’s the reality to counter 80 years of bull. These are observations. Everyone in this chamber right now and everyone watching on TV is here because someone cared. When a foal is born to a mare, it pops out of the mare, struggles for about 20 minutes and then starts cantering and put its head down and starts grazing with the herd. When every one of us, as humans, was born, we were completely helpless. The fact that anyone is in this room or watching means they are alive and that they were cared for. We are completely helpless for a number of years. Whether our parents were good or bad or whatever, the fact that you exist means that humans care. Humans care, and they’re based on care. The most caring humans got to propagate. 

Here’s the second thing. Visit any country in the world and you’ll see that developed continents have a lower impact on the environment than the undeveloped continents. For example, a person in a remote, undeveloped area of Africa will defecate in the creek because he or she is too busy scrounging for their child’s next meal. Yet what we do is mine black rock called coal and red rock called iron ire, and we make steel, build dams, build water pipelines and get sanitation and water to our communities. Developed nations have less impact on the natural environment. That means human civilisation and the natural environment are mutually dependent. We all know that our civilisation won’t have a future if we don’t protect the environment. It’s also clear that the environment has no future if we don’t develop and civilise. That is clear, yet we’re told the opposite. 

Our duty is to enable humans to flourish. Right throughout history, every generation has taken care of the younger generation and tried to make a better world for its younger generation. When we develop our country and civilise, we actually protect the environment. Our goal is not to protect the environment. Our goal is to protect humans and to civilise—for humans to flourish and civilise. That’s why I’m very proud about speaking about our species. 

I also want to say that we need to have an aim to restore our country and our planet for humans to abound, thrive and flourish. The goal is for humans to thrive. Farming is essential for civilisation. Farming needs to be protected. Thomas Jefferson said, ‘For cities to exist, we need farms; for farms to exist, we don’t need cities.’ As I mentioned briefly, the objective here is cultured lab meat. That’s one of the globalist aims of the United Nations and the World Economic Forum. Humans need real meat, animal fat. Who knew that the Greens were helping to sell cancerous cultured meat grown in slop in a bioreactor? People just want to be left alone to get on with their lives and to get the government the hell out of our lives. Humans deserve food here and overseas— (Time expired) 

Pressure is increasing on the Federal Communications Minister to intervene and delay the 3G Mobile Network shutdown as it’s revealed 1 million devices will be affected. The next CrowdStrike style disaster is around the corner with the looming shutdown of the 3G network.

Telstra, Optus and TPG confirmed that a total of 1 million devices will be affected next month when the network is taken offline. This disaster is still looming despite the telco companies claiming they’ve completed a huge education and public awareness campaign. The Communications Minister must intervene and defer the planned shutdown of the 3G network.

Affected devices also include more than 50,000 4G mobiles and an unknown number of pacemakers still reliant on the 3G network to call 000. The shutdown is still a matter of life and death.

While telcos claim to have done all they can to make mobile owners aware, the Senate Inquiry heard witness after witness testify that very few people realise how many other critical devices rely on 3G and will be useless in just over a month. These affected devices include water and power meters, medical refrigeration units, agriculture equipment, pacemakers, medical alarms, airport lifts and many others.

Witnesses across the two days of public hearings at the One Nation initiated Senate Inquiry included the Royal Flying Doctor Service sounding the alarm on behalf of regional communities, the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry as the country’s largest business network, government complaints authorities, technical experts and many others.

Are the telcos only pursuing the 3G shutdown for their own profits and to sell new mobile phones? The Minister will be responsible for CrowdStrike 2.0 in just over a month unless she immediately makes it clear she will intervene and put the public interest before telco profits.

Media Release

Last month, I joined numerous impassioned landowners from Maroochy River Farmers and Landowners Association, listening to their grievances about the Sunshine Coast Council’s actions, which they argue are detrimental to the environment and are forcing farmers off their land for a United Nations carbon capture program (Blue Heart/Blue Carbon).

Through alterations to irrigation channels and the removal of one-way drains, the Sunshine Coast Council is introducing saltwater to fertile farmland and a golf course, jeopardising both ecosystems.  They are literally killing the environment to ‘save it’ with carbon capture.

I stand in solidarity with the Maroochy River landowners in their battle against a council that is wilfully and knowingly undermining their livelihoods and damaging the land.

Telstra has announced it will delay shutting down its 3G network by two months, after public pressure and a looming Senate Inquiry was announced.

I call on the Federal Communications Minister to intervene and cancel the shutdown. Telstra’s back down is not good enough.

I again call on the telecommunications companies to abandon their 3G network shutdown until they can assure us that no Australian will be worse off or unable to call triple-zero.

This slight delay does nothing to address the 1 million 4G mobile phones that will be unable to call triple-0 when the 3G network is shut off.

The delay does nothing to address the estimated 3 million devices including vital medical alarms, farm infrastructure, small business EFTPOS machines and regional Australians are still completely reliant on the 3G network.

The Senate Inquiry into the 3G shut down won’t report until 30th November, shutting down before then is defiance of the Senate and people’s elected representatives.

 It’s time for Federal Communications Minister Michelle Rowland to intervene. The telecommunications companies are obviously set on leaving Australians high and dry.

Prior Media Release and Video

I spoke with Daisy Cousens last Friday on increased land values in #Queensland and how the government benefits. As well as Digital ID and the upcoming rallies around Australian capital cities.

Watch ‘The Daisy Cousens Show’ live and on demand Fridays 7pm AEST at ADH TV: https://adh.tv/videos/the-daisy-cousens-show

Transcript

Daisy Cousens: Well, it’s abundantly clear by now that despite trying to con Australians with a $15 a week tax break, Federal Labor is ideologically perfectly happy to rob citizens blind by taxing them out the wazoo. The beginning example of that was the reinstating of the 37.5% tax bracket, which ensures bracket creep will continue in perpetuity. However, in an even sneakier ploy, Labor is now taxing by stealth by increasing land values. Joining me this evening is One Nation Senator, the wonderful Malcolm Roberts. Senator, fabulous to have you here this evening. How are you?

Senator ROBERTS: I’m very well, thanks Daisy and thank you for the invitation. It’s a pleasure to be with you.

Daisy Cousens: Well, it’s wonderful, wonderful to have you here. I’m very, very keen to get your take on this Senator. There has been a lot of upset up north about an increase in land value. And look, at first thought this might sound like a great thing for farmers, that their land is now worth more. But when you take tax into account, the tax hungry Labor government, this all you know, starts to make sense from their point of view, doesn’t it?

Senator ROBERTS: Well, I’d love to talk about the tax hungry Labor government, but we also must talk about the tax hungry Liberal opposition and former Liberal government. But we’ll come to that hopefully.

Daisy Cousens: Hmm.

Senator ROBERTS: Inflation, as you quite rightly pointed out, is a stealth tax.  It’s stealthy thing that people don’t see but it reduces disposable income and what we see is land values going up for, and I think an 11% increase in the number of properties that that will be subject to land tax because it’s a threshold of 600,000 and above, but also remember the land valuations are bases for rates and  councils right across the state are under pressure, some through mismanagement, some through mismanagement from the state government. But the systems are so complex and so confusing, and the accounting systems, that local councils will be increasing rates as well.  So, this will slug everyone – it’ll mean less disposable income.  So, people’s stand of living will be going backwards.

Daisy Cousens: Gosh, which is appalling in this cost-of-living crisis. I hate this sort of ideological bit that political parties have that it’s okay just to tax people into oblivion, because as you rightly mentioned, the Liberal Party. I’m always on about how, you know, Labor is so happy to tax citizens, but the same can actually be said quietly about the Liberal Party can’t it?

Senator ROBERTS: It can be. I moved a motion, an amendment, sorry, recently into one of the pieces of legislation that Labor had introduced to the Senate and that was simply to remove bracket creep. It was done properly. The Liberals even stood up and said they commend me for it, they like the way the bill was written, but they’re not going to support it because they love bracket creep and so does the Labor Party. They love bracket creep.  They love seeing people go unconsciously into higher tax bracket, not even doing being aware that that’s the case and that’s an immediate increase in tax and so people don’t realise that they’re being, that they’re having more money stolen from them.

And then Dave Sharma, the new Liberal Senator, when he gave his maiden speech, his first speech in the Senate recently, he said he’s all in favour of removing bracket creep, but just two weeks before he he voted against removing bracket creep.  So, there was nothing wrong with my bill, they said it was well done but they couldn’t do it. So, both the Liberal and Labor Party.  And we’ve also got to remember that net-zero, putting in place net-zero foreign policy, increases energy prices which flow right through the economy. The energy sector is the most important sector in the economy in terms of the foundation for prices of goods and services because they flow right through and when you increase energy prices, you decrease productivity, you decrease wealth and that applies not only to individuals – it applies to businesses, it applies to communities. And the Liberal Party is the one who first said in government that they would support UN 2050 net-zero policy. So, the Liberal government is putting heavy impost on every person who uses electricity and every person who lives in this country.

Daisy Cousens: Hmm gosh! It’s so hypocritical of both the major parties because they both go on this bent, don’t they, pretending they’re for the little guy, or we’re for the workers, we’re for ordinary people, but how can they possibly say that with a straight face when they’re so happily happy to tax people?

Senator ROBERTS: Well, they’re used to the lies that they’re putting out. The climate scam is a lie. The climate fraud is a lie. The whole basis for these energy policies is a lie. And then we see – every major problem, Daisy, in this country comes out of Parliament House, Canberra, every major problem. Some of the problems come out of states, but they’re exacerbated by the federal government. So, we see inflation, was driven by the federal government and the Reserve Bank of Australia by printing far too much money during the COVID mismanagement.  The whole of that COVID mismanagement shut down supply routes, the supply side, so we had fewer goods, which meant that raised prices, and we had more money chasing those fewer goods, which further raise prices. So inflation, which is a hidden stealth tax as you rightly pointed out, is the cause of people going backward in disposable income. So inflation is the number one enemy and it was created by the Morrison government with the Labor Premiers in hand and by the Reserve Bank of Australia.

Daisy Cousens: Ohe absolutely.

Senator ROBERTS: So what we need to so is actually open these people up to the truth.

Daisy Cousens: Hmm. Oh no, I agree with you and what people just I think conveniently shove under the rug or forget, certainly the Liberal Party does, was that it was the Liberal Party’s fault when they were in government a few years ago that we are in this inflationary position because they kept capitulating to the states’ demands for money for their ridiculous COVID policies. So, thank you for bringing that up and let’s never forget it. Now, Senator Roberts, according to this chart, the greater the rate of primary production, the higher the valuation increase. Is this justly proportional?

Senator ROBERTS: Daisy, let’s keep flogging everyone who’s successful. Let’s see how many successful people we have left in this country. That’s exactly what they’re doing. So, someone that works their land better, their business better, someone invests in their land, their business, and they have a higher productivity and what do we do? We slug them for it. That’s no way to reward talent. That’s no way to reward creativity and hard work and enterprise. That’s the opposite. It’ll cripple this country and it is crippling this country. That’s what we need to remember. This will do enormous damage to our primary producers and we call them primary producers for a bloody good reason. They’re the primary producers of the whole economy. Everything is based upon agriculture and mining, the two primary production sectors. Manufacturing is based on that. Goods and services in the services sector or the tertiary sector are all based upon it. So, we’re killing the primary sector and what it’s doing is it’s hollowing out the bush – they want us all to move from the bush and into the slums and cities – high density high rise living. Thomas Jefferson said it so well and Tim Ball, the expert climatologist from Canada, echoed those words. You can have farms without cities, Daisy, but you cannot have cities without farms. We are crippling this country.

Daisy Cousens: And that is such a good point. You know they are so important, our farmers, and they’re being treated so shoddily by the government and certainly, think of the cost-of-living crisis, as taxes increase for our farmers, won’t that in turn flow onto our grocery bills? Will they become even more expensive?

Senator ROBERTS: Yes, it will. And we’re seeing the prices increase already, quite dramatically, because of the recent increases in energy costs, which have been artificially driven by basically lies and also by inflation. And also, we must remember that we’re seeing the consequences of previous Liberal-National governments that stole farmers rights to use their land and to comply, that was the Liberal Party government’s way of complying with the United Nations Kyoto Protocol. They said they wouldn’t sign it, but that they will comply with it. The moment they did that they started putting in restrictions on land use. They got the state government involved, particularly in NSW and Queensland to put those land use restrictions in and now we see the Queensland government, two years ago, three years ago, bringing in legislation to cripple the farms right up and down the East Coast of Queensland which, as you know from our states layout, are fundamental agricultural areas.  They’re the richest agricultural areas – all in the name of the environment. And I asked questions in a Senate inquiry of the QLD experts -they don’t have any evidence for it. We must remember that the farmer, the owner of the land, is the most important custodian, the best custodian, because a farmer, if he ignores the environment around his land, his land deteriorates. The farmer is the best person for understanding the management of the environment.  The farmer is the one who’s going to miss out the most if he abuses that or she abuses that because they’re superannuation goes, they have got nothing to hand back to their kids. Whatever they want to do is gone. So the farmer is the best person to manage the land and the environment around his or her property. And what we’re doing is we’re putting it in charge of bureaucrats in Canberra, bureaucrats in Brisbane and bureaucrats in academia that are crippling our agricultural sector.

Daisy Cousens: Oh, absolutely. I mean, they’re just handing it over to people who have no idea what they’re doing. It’s outrageous! Now look, Senator, before we go, I have to talk to you about this Digital ID bill. You have been a real campaigner against the Digital ID bill. What is there left for Australians to do to stop this nightmare becoming imprinted as a reality?

Senator ROBERTS: Well, Daisy, I’m normally a very calm person and I don’t get upset too easily, but on Wednesday night, before Easter, after this bill went through without any debate, not one word of debate.  Amendments were moved and passed without one word of debate. And so that’s the first thing to recognise, the guillotine. So, I was shattered. But on Thursday I came into my office the next morning and found everyone in my office happy and I thought, what’s going on? And they said, Malcolm, the House of Reps was kept back late, the bill was introduced in the Senate and once it was passed in the Senate, it was supposed to go to the House of Reps, for passage through the House of Reps.  Well, it didn’t go to the House of Reps. And we believe that that’s the case because the public kicked up such a fuss, social media gutted Labor, social media gutted David Pocock the Teal, David Pocock the Teal senator and what we think is going on is that Labor is very, very worried about the consequences of passing this bill. And so, what we’re saying is 2 things. Every citizen get out there and hammer your local representative in parliament, in the House of Representatives. Not just the Labor Party but also the Liberal Party. Now the Liberals introduced this bloody bill into the parliament three years ago and I opposed it from the start. But the Liberals have voted with us against the bill two weeks ago in the Senate. So, we know the Liberals are sensitive in the lower house. We know that the Labor Party is sensitive in the lower house and the Teals and the Greens, so get out there and tell your lower house representative, your house representative member to vote against it.

Daisy Cousens: Absolutely.

Senator ROBERTS: The second thing is we saw the public rise up and I must congratulate everyone for doing that. We heard it in Canberra. Now what we need to do is – One Nation put out a petition opposing the digital identity bill. It got 60,000 signatures in the space of two days. Phenomenal.

Daisy Cousens: Fantastic.

Senator ROBERTS: And what we’re doing now based on that strength, we’re running a national protest day on May the 5th, Sunday May the 5th and we’ll be having protests in each of the major capital cities in Australia. So, it’ll be a very important that the public gets out and shows its voice.

Daisy Cousens: Absolutely. Thank you so much for letting us all know about those protests. And Senator, thank you so much for coming on the show this evening. You do wonderful work and I do hope we can see you again soon.

Senator ROBERTS: I look forward to it. Thank you very much and have a good weekend, Daisy.

The Senate will debate and vote on establishing an inquiry into the shutdown of the 3G mobile network on Tuesday, 26 March 2024. 

The 3G network is an essential service for millions of Australians. 3 million 3G-reliant devices are estimated to be affected by the looming shutdown, including 200,000 medical alarms. 

Farmers across the country rely on 3G wherever there is no 4G coverage, as well as using equipment that doesn’t operate on 4G.

740,000 4G customers will be unable to dial Triple Zero in an emergency.

Media Release

Notice of Motion 

The Albanese Labor Government are shifting the goalposts on the Murray Darling Basin Plan. There’s only 42GL left to complete the water acquisitions across the whole basin, so the pain is almost over and there’s still the 450GL of water for South Australia, which means this doesn’t need to be taken from irrigators. And there’s another 3 years to find that water through capital works.

In this Estimates session I asked whether these last few measures would be the end of the nightmare for Basin communities. I was expecting a yes – instead I got a no.

It seems the bureaucracy and the Albanese Government are hell bent on taking everything for themselves, forcing even more farmers off their land. Their answer certainly sounds like they intend to demand more water for the environment when the plan ends in a few years, starting the nightmare over again.

Landholders, including farmers, just want to know what the government is planning so they can adjust. Clearly the Government does not understand farming to know this, or simply don’t care.

The science underpinning the scheme is flawed, which is unsustainable, hurts farmers, fibre producers and the environment.

One Nation would complete the remainder of this plan and then call it done. No more water to be taken off the farmers. We would also sell the 78GL of water over-purchased by the department back to the farmers, to grow food and fibre to feed and to clothe the world.

Anything else is sabotaging the bush. #nofarmersnofood

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS:  With all the numbers flying around, I feel confused sometimes; things don’t seem to change. I would like some clarification. Talk of water buybacks created a lot of anger when the Albanese government came to power. That talk seems to have gone quiet. There was a plan to buy back 44.3 gigalitres immediately, a threat to use buybacks to get another figure to complete the plan—I will raise that in a minute. How much has been purchased so far? Your website is still saying that you need another 38 gigalitres, yet we heard the tender was oversubscribed.  

Ms O’Connell:  In terms of the open tender, we were seeking 44.3 gigalitres for the Bridging the Gap component. I want to be specific here; that was for Bridging the Gap. It was oversubscribed. We had 250 tender responses, which accounted to 90.34 gigalitres in terms of across the catchments.  

Senator ROBERTS:  So double?  

Ms O’Connell:  Yes, just over double. These Bridging the Gap requirements are catchment specific. There is a certain amount of water to be recovered in a certain catchment. It was oversubscribed in total, but specifically we are purchasing to an amount in a particular catchment. It also has to represent the right type of water, and value for money, before we proceed. From that 44.3 gigalitre tender we have agreed to purchase 26.25 gigalitres towards that target. We will, as a result of that, complete the requirements in three of those specific catchments.  

Senator ROBERTS:  So you still have the fourth catchment to do?  

Ms O’Connell:  There are six catchments in total.  

Senator ROBERTS:  You still have three of the six to do.  

Ms O’Connell:  That’s right; to complete the recovery.  

Mr Southwell:  That is correct. There are three catchments that we expect to recover through this tender, subject to all contracts being finalised, and three to go. I might take this opportunity to give an overview of where we are in the process. The tender sought to recover 44.3 gigalitres. When all of those contracts are signed, we expect to have spent around $205 million. Contracts are still being signed. That is important to note in terms of where we are up to. A table on our website provides an outline of each catchment, the volumes we expect to have recovered and the volumes that remain.  

Senator Davey:  That table was only uploaded today.  

Mr Southwell:  It was uploaded yesterday, I think, Senator.  

Senator Davey:  Late yesterday.  

Mr Southwell:  I understood it was later than 9 am yesterday morning.  

Senator ROBERTS:  You will still buy the 90 gigalitres that came in as tenders?  

Mr Southwell:  No.  

Senator ROBERTS:  Just the 26.25?  

Mr Southwell:  That tender process was specifically for Bridging the Gap, and the volumes that we are purchasing are for Bridging the Gap.  

Senator ROBERTS:  That is 26.25?  

Mr Southwell:  Correct.  

Senator ROBERTS:  I note that the Restoring our Rivers Framework, currently under consultation, is for the full 450 gigalitres South Australian flow; your website says 424. Can I have this confirmed: this is the same bucket of water, whether it is 424 or 450—not two buckets?  

Ms O’Connell:  No, there are not two buckets. The requirement is 450 gigalitres, of which 26 gigalitres is contracted, delivered or underway. The remaining component is 424. So it is one lot of 450, with 26 already recovered.  

Senator ROBERTS:  Senator Hanson-Young, in an interview with the ABC last November, said there was a further 300 gigalitres of water to be found to complete the plan, not 38 gigalitres. This was not including the 450 gigalitres. Is that statement correct? If so, can you explain how that figure is arrived at?  

Ms O’Connell:  We would have to see what exactly she was referring to and get that quoted number.  

Chair:  Could you table it? Do you have it with you?  

Senator ROBERTS:  I don’t have it with me, no.  

Mr Fredericks:  We will take that on notice.  

Ms O’Connell:  For us to be able to answer that, would you be able to provide the document as well, so we can make sure we are referring to the right thing?  

Senator ROBERTS:  Yes. By our calculations, if you get the remaining 38 gigalitres on buybacks, you will also have 78 gigalitres of excess purchases in some bailees. Will you sell this back to the farmers?  

Ms O’Connell:  On Bridging the Gap, which is what we have been talking about, it is a catchment-specific amount that we need to recover. We don’t intend to buy more than what is needed. There is a minor amount of incidental overrecovery that happens when you buy water, but that is minor and incidental. Our intention is to bridge the gap through the 44.3 gigalitres.  

Ms Connell:  In relation to the 78 gigalitres of overrecovery you referred to, there are two issues to highlight. The number of overrecoveries won’t be confirmed until New South Wales water resource plans are accredited. A significant proportion of that figure relates to overrecoveries in New South Wales. The other thing to keep in mind is that water is currently held by the Commonwealth Environmental Water Holder and used at the moment.  

Senator ROBERTS:  Minister, once you get that figure, the 38, and the 450, minus what is underway now, is it done? Is there anything else? Can what remains of farming in the Murray Darling Basin get on with growing food and fibre to feed and clothe the world, without this nightmare of the plan hanging over farmers? Is that the end of it?  

Senator McAllister:  I think the best way to describe the government’s intentions is to implement the plan in full. That was the purpose of the legislation that went through the parliament. As you have observed, there is substantial work to do. That work includes the recovery associated with Bridging the Gap, which the officials have been talking about. It also includes establishment of the framework for reaching the 450-gigalitre target. The government is presently consulting on that framework. That document is in the public domain and we are seeking public comment about that approach. There are other elements of the work associated with completing the plan; the officials can talk you through that. Rather than accepting your summary of the work before us, I would prefer to point to the way the government characterises the work that is underway.  

Senator ROBERTS:  What amounts are required to finish the plan? That is what I heard you say: when the plan is finished, that is it—no more buybacks.  

Ms Connell:  In the first instance, the plan doesn’t finish. It is an ongoing instrument, subject to a review by the Murray Darling Basin Authority in 2026. That will be the first review of the Basin Plan. Under the current Basin Plan, there are two key targets.  

Senator ROBERTS:  That means that the plan could change.  

Chair:  Senator ROBERTS, the river is a living thing. The reason why we ended up with the Murray Darling Basin Plan in the first place was over-extraction and the utilisation of the river.  

Senator Davey:  Happy to replace the chair to answer questions from the committee. Thank you, Chair.  

Chair:  Thank you, Senator Davey. Minister, maybe you could help us out here. It is a point of clarification that is worth making.  

Senator McAllister:  I am happy for officials to talk through the approach. The main point is that the government’s commitment is to implement the Basin Plan in full. Under the previous government, insufficient progress was made on some important initiatives. Progress basically stalled for an entire decade. We talked about this a lot during the committee stage of the Senate debate. You are aware of the government’s perspective on this. It is for that reason that we had to change the legislation. We are presently consulting on the key initiatives that are underway. The officials can talk you through all of the important next steps.  

Ms O’Connell:  In terms of the Basin Plan, it is about sustainable river systems long-term management. There are two major components in the plan to be fulfilled that need to be delivered. We have been talking about Bridging the Gap. The remainder is the 450 gigalitres. There are new legislative time frames for delivering those that provide more time, more options, greater flexibility and greater accountability to be able to deliver on those targets. Beyond that, there is a review role for the Murray-Darling Basin Authority in terms of the long-term sustainability and sustainable management of our river systems. That review is not until 2026, which would foreshadow what might be required in the longer-term future.  

Senator ROBERTS:  Let me understand that, Ms O’Connell. The plan as it is—as we have just been told, it’s a living document and a living plan and it could change—the 450 and the 38, that’s it; but it could change in 2026 when the review is done. Because it is a living plan, the plan could grow another arm and leg.  

Ms O’Connell:  Yes.  

Mr Fredericks:  I don’t think we can pre-empt that review.  

Senator ROBERTS:  People’s livelihoods are at stake, Mr Fredericks.  

Mr Fredericks:  I understand that fully. There is a review. It is in 2026. It will be very well conducted by the MDBA. I don’t think that, sitting here in 2024, we, as departmental officials, can really pre-empt that review.  

Senator ROBERTS:  I am thinking of farmers in southern Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria and South Australia who are wondering whether or not to invest in their future and the future of their communities. Businesses in many rural communities have gone downhill, in large part due to the Water Act and the plan. These people want to know that they’ve got something more than two years. They just want to know: is this the end?  

Senator McAllister:  Can I make this point, Senator Roberts? The origin of the plan lay in a recognition across the country that we had overallocated the Murray-Darling Basin system. That had very significant consequences for basin communities. It had very significant consequences for the food and fibre producers in the Murray-Darling Basin, who depend on reliable access to water. It had consequences, of course, for the natural systems in the Murray-Darling Basin, which were under enormous pressure. It’s a while back now, but it really came to a head in the millennium drought. We saw some very severe impacts across the basin at that time. There was a recognition across the country, including within the basin, that we couldn’t go on in this way and that the overallocation needed to be addressed. That is the origin of the plan.  

It matters to farmers and food and fibre producers that these issues are tackled and addressed because there is an interrelationship between the access to water by communities, the access to water by farmers, the availability of water for environmental purposes and, increasingly, the recognition that cultural water matters to First Nations people as well.  

All of these things are interrelated and, at their heart, the success of all of those stakeholders, and the interests of all of those stakeholders, lies in having a healthy, working river that is being appropriately managed. Those are the underlying ideas that drive our government’s commitment to implementing the Basin Plan.  

Senator ROBERTS:  Minister, while we do argue about the science underpinning the Basin Plan, let’s set that aside. Modern civilisation cannot exist without a healthy environment. We get that. A healthy environment cannot be achieved without modern civilisation because it reduces the pressure on the environment. Landholders are the number one protectors of the environment—that means farmers. At the moment, farmers and small businesses in rural communities see a shifting of the goalposts repeatedly. That’s what’s bothering them. They get the point about the need to protect the environment. They’re tired of having the goalposts shifted on them. That’s why my question was: is this the end of it? So far, what we’ve got is: ‘No, it’s not. In 2026 we’ll have a review and see what happens.’ 

Senator McAllister:  The plan has been in place for a very long time, Senator Roberts.  

Senator ROBERTS:  Since 2007.  

Senator McAllister:  Our party has been very consistent in supporting the implementation of that plan. Our view is that the plan should be implemented. For much of that period, that was the stated position of the coalition parties as well. Unfortunately, in the final years of the last government—in fact, really across the period of the last government—the Liberal and National parties undermined and sabotaged the plan’s implementation.  

Senator Davey interjecting— 

Senator McAllister:  That has caused a very significant problem.  

Chair:  That is the minister’s view. She is entitled to answer the question as she sees fit.  

Senator Davey:  I dispute that. The terminology ‘sabotaged’ is absolutely— 

Senator McAllister:  Senator, I think you said— 

Chair:  The minister will finish her— 

Senator Davey:  We might have had a different perspective on how to implement the plan.  

Chair:  Senator Davey, the minister will finish her answer and then you will have a turn.  

Senator McAllister:  I think the core facts are before us. In nine years, that government delivered just two of the 450 gigalitres—two gigalitres, under the 450-gigalitre target— 

Senator Davey:  We were focused on the environment and a sustainable level— 

Chair:  Senator Davey! 

Senator McAllister:  which would have meant that the plan would have been completed at some time around the year 4000. Steps needed to be taken to get the plan on track. We are taking those steps. I think the government’s priorities in terms of implementation are very clear. As I’ve indicated a couple of times now, we’re engaged in consultation with the community about the practical ways that we’re going to take the next steps together.