Transcript

Kieran Gilbert: Welcome back to Budget Night Live. Our crossbench panel of Senate kingmakers are with me now ready to reveal how they’ll vote on the budget’s most polarising policies. Joining me at the desk independent senators Jacqui Lambie and David Pocock, One Nation senator Malcolm Roberts and Greens senator and finance spokesperson, Barbara Pocock. Great to see you all. Thanks for being here.

Senator Lambie, first to you. We’ll get some initial thoughts. What were your overall assessment of the budget?

Jacqui Lambie: It’s great that you’re helping the vulnerable in a certain way, although we’ll come back to that. But what bothers me more than anything, it’s those middle income earners. They are struggling themselves and a lot of them will just be over that threshold, where they won’t receive anything and those interest rates coming up continue to go up. That’s really bothering me. There is nothing for them at all. It’s something like we’re trying to push them further down and therefore a further gap between the rich and the poor. And that bothers me terribly.

The other thing that bothers me too, is when you give rental assistance out, and I know the Greens have been calling for this, for further rental assistance, and you have interest rates going up, that person that’s renting that house to you, has also got to cover their own. I’m not sure that that is going to benefit where it’s meant to go. It’s going to go to the homeowner and that’s what bothers me.

Same with childcare. When you give extra to childcare, unless you cap the fees you are paying that they’re allowed to charge you, guess what’s going to happen on the 15th of June? Every childcare centre that’s out there going to say, “We’re actually putting our fees up.” Okay, it’s great to throw money out there, but you’ve got to put caps on stuff so people don’t continue, so the greed doesn’t go to the top.

Kieran Gilbert: Yeah. Senator Pocock, your thoughts on the efforts tonight? You’ve been pushing for a JobSeeker increase across the board. They’ve delivered on that.

Jacqui Lambie: Is that what you call it?

David Pocock: I mean, the big take takeaway is health, investment in health. Clearly, I think this is an acknowledgement that our universal healthcare system is no longer that universal and there are so many people out there who aren’t seeing their GP, because they simply either can’t get in or can’t afford it. So, great to see investment in health.

Kieran Gilbert: You give a tick on that.

David Pocock: When it comes to JobSeeker, $2.85 a day, it’s a bit laughable, to be honest. It’s embarrassing. This is something that is keeping people in poverty. This is a decision that will leave people in poverty. We hear all this talk about getting people back into the workforce. Experts are saying that when you’ve got people living in poverty, it’s an impediment, it’s a barrier to them getting back into the workforce. So, I think we missed a massive opportunity to actually lift people out of poverty and allow them to get their lives back together, get back into work.

Kieran Gilbert: Isn’t one of the challenges, Barbara Pocock, is the inflationary environment we’re in at the moment? So, the government was cautious about increasing payments too much right now.

Barbara Pocock:

I think there are a lot of people looking to this budget hoping there would be help to let them deal better with the inflationary environment, with the cost of living crisis. I think there’s a lot of disappointment. That trivial increase, I mean $40 a fortnight is not nothing, but it’s not what people need. The rental assistance rise is very small and we’ve got people, it won’t even touch the sides of the rental increases we are seeing in my city, in Adelaide, and across country areas as well. So, a real missed opportunity to fix some of those really pressing questions at the bottom of our income scale and a widening inequality, because there’s some real benefits up the top of the income scale for people who are quite wealthy.

Kieran Gilbert: Malcolm Roberts, did you think the increase in the incentive for bulk billing for GPs was a good move?

Malcolm Roberts: Well, I think it’s fundamental that people understand there’s only one reason why these increases can be paid. That’s the mining industry and the agricultural sector. Jim Chalmers mentioned that we can do this because of the things we export. He won’t mention coal, he won’t mention iron ore, he won’t mention bauxite, he won’t mention agricultural products. That’s the only reason this budget is in surplus, and it shows yet again that the Treasury forecast low prices, but they’ve been saved again by high prices. The mining sector needs to be supported, not vilified.

What we need to do is open more coal mines instead of Plibersek shutting them. So, we need to build more coal-fired power stations and keep those low energy prices, because the other thing is, he’s raised the flag up the pole on energy prices, because he’s admitted that he’s failing 2050 net-zero. The UN’s policy is failing us and energy prices are rising and what we need is cheap power. Just dump the UN 2050 net-zero.

Kieran Gilbert: Been a substantial increase in migration, 400,000 people this year, 315,000 next. Is it time to back the Housing Future Fund, as the government says, because quite clearly more accommodation will be needed, Malcolm?

Malcolm Roberts: More bureaucracy, more bureaucracy, more bureaucracy. What we need to do is get the fundamentals of the economy correct, improve taxation, comprehensive taxation reform. Get rid of the red tape, the green tape, the blue tape. Set the industries free, and then we can have homes built in the right place for the right price.

At the moment, we’re getting to see more bureaucrats just adding. We’ve got three new agencies coming in the housing bill in the parliament right now. I mean, this is absurd. What we need to do is recognise the highly inflationary impact, as Warren just talked about here, of 400,000 people wanting a house. That is fundamental. That will drive up the cost of renting, the cost of housing phenomenally.

Kieran Gilbert: I know that you’ve done a deal with the government, you and your colleagues, for the housing fund. How critical is it now, given those numbers and given what the treasurer said in his speech, reiterating his commitment to it. They want it legislated this week, that fund, and given the increase in migration, sounds more critical than ever.

Jacqui Lambie: Yeah, we hadn’t taken the increase in migration into account. We just wrote about the people here right now that are living here that are without a house. We also know from experience in Tasmania, by doing that housing deal, I can tell you now, by the time you do the greenfield sites, find them, you get state to put in their money to put new pipes and that, out to suburbs and do that infrastructure underneath, it’s a two-year turnaround before you start seeing foundation put in the ground. That’s the truth of the matter. It will take two years and those approvals to do that, it takes about that time. So, that is a concern.

My concern is if you are going to bring migration into this country, and we don’t have a problem with that, the problem is where are we going to put them? This is my question, where are we going to put them? We’ve already got thousands out there screaming for houses. We can’t keep up with that demand. We are never going to catch that demand, mate, that I can see. In the meantime, we don’t have the right tradies. How do we fix this, when we don’t have enough tradies on the ground and how do we bring more immigration in, if we don’t have the houses there?

Kieran Gilbert: It’s a huge task ahead.

Jacqui Lambie: It is a huge task.

Kieran Gilbert: I know the Greens want the government to be more ambitious, but is it time to at least take what you can get and let that bill through?

Barbara Pocock: No, the bill that is there on the table doesn’t even keep up with the growth in people who are looking for housing. It cannot solve the problem. We need to grow supply, but we also most importantly have to deal with renters. One in three Australians are renting. They are really struggling to find-

Kieran Gilbert: There’s an increase in the rental assistance announced today.

Barbara Pocock: It’s very, very small. It’s $1.18 a day. I mean, it’s a tiny increase and we know people can’t find rental properties and they can’t afford it. The price of rental has gone up so much. We’re very unhappy with that bill. We feel like the government has the capability to do much more. I know as an economist, it’s about growing the supply and that bill will not do it fast enough to keep up with what’s projected.

Kieran Gilbert: Even with Jacqui Lambie’s amendments, where there’s going to be a minimum amount?

Barbara Pocock: Well, Jacqui’s amendments create a minimum, but it’s inadequate for my state and it’s inadequate for many parts of the country.

Jacqui Lambie: But the thing is, if you don’t start building these houses now, you’re going to have more people out there. You need to start doing something now. You have the biggest balance of power in that bloody senate up there. That’s what you have and you can’t keep doing deals for more housing. You’ve got to be kidding me. You have to start today. Those people need roofs over their head today.

Barbara Pocock: We need to make sure we get the rental support for the people now.

Jacqui Lambie: You can do that with your balance of power. You keep pushing that. You’ve got that big balance of power. You’ve got more than what Tammy and I have, I can tell you. And you’re not using that.

Barbara Pocock: Well, I think we’re using it very effectively.

Jacqui Lambie: Well, you want to stop people from having a roof over their head. That is disgusting.

Kieran Gilbert: Well, David Pocock, some move is better than nothing. That’s your view, isn’t it?

David Pocock: Well, I think the thing that we’re hearing is we’re facing some enormous challenges as a society. Everything from climate and the environment, people know things are getting bad, to housing, to cost of living. I think people were looking to the government for a big plan, a longer term plan, but we’ve really seen a pretty safe budget, not a lot of tough decisions. In particular around revenue, they’ve really just kicked the can down the road. The changes to the petroleum resource rent tax, it’s just tinkering at the edges. To date, the PRT hasn’t seen a cent from offshore gas projects. The way that they’ve changed it, it’s simply going to bring forward some of those projected flows of money and create some sort of really base royalty. It’s not the sort of reform that we need when we’ve got a budget that has been in structural deficit for so long and we’re just so reliant on personal income tax as a country. That needs to change and it’s going to take some really tough conversations for government.

Kieran Gilbert: Well, with that personal income tax, the stage three tax cuts, Malcolm Roberts, they don’t get a mention in the budget. The treasurer says it’s old news, that the decision’s an old one, it’s done. Government hasn’t changed its position. Do you see that as the government reinforcing their support for it?

Malcolm Roberts: Well, I’d like to build on what David said because what we’re seeing is some fundamental contradictions here. They’re just tinkering at the edges. But the fundamental contradictions are that the Reserve Bank of Australia wants to increase interest rates to send people broke so they stop spending money. Jim Chalmers, on the meantime brings in 400,000 immigrants in one year, which will drive up the price of housing, increasing the cost of living pressures and also splashing cash around, which will drive up inflation. He’s madly stuffing cash back into people’s pockets, and we’re seeing the fundamental contradictions. We need to understand the basics of what’s happening in this budget.

Kieran Gilbert: There’s a huge challenge on the NDIS front as well, Jackie Lambie. 200 people every day going onto the NDIS. They’ve put in an 8% target cap. It’s only a target, but are you worried about the sustainability of that programme?

Jacqui Lambie: What I’m worried about, and I want to be very careful how I say this, but what I’m worried about and what I do know is I’ve got veterans out there and elderly out there, and because the NDIS pays more for services right across the board, for medical services, for gardening services, it means the elderly and the veterans are going without or waiting months and months and months for those services and treatment. That’s what I know because it pays a lot more in the NDIS. Now, I’ve spoken to Minister Shorten about this since he got got in and I’ve seen no change, nor have I seen him raise those amounts for both the elderly and the veterans, so they at least match the NDIS so we have a fair go, because right now, we’ve been pushed down the line with services and medical services, and that is a problem in itself. And yes, the NDIS was always going to blow out. There’s no doubt about that. And we need to find where we can make some savings here, and who really should be on the NDIS and who should not.

Kieran Gilbert: Well, $5 billion growth every year, Barbara Pocock, are you worried about that sustainability, even with the 8% target cap?

Barbara Pocock: It is really important for us to properly fund and properly manage the NDIS, and this budget represents a really significant cut on the projected increases that we need for that programme. So I’m concerned about that. And you mentioned the stage three tax cuts. They are very real in the way that they could be used to fund the things that we need. We need to expand our care economy, pay our childcare workers, the people who didn’t get a real increase in this budget so that we can build the care supports that we need in a population where more and more women are working. And we’ve got a demographic shift where a lot more people, as Jackie says, are getting older and need support as well as properly fund the NDIS.

Malcolm Roberts: And yet we’ve got a 10% shortfall in aged care workers.

Barbara Pocock: Yeah, we need to pay them properly, keep them there.

Malcolm Roberts: 450,000 jobs needed, 45,000 short.

Kieran Gilbert: What’s your read on the NDIS as well, on top of that?

Malcolm Roberts: The NDIS needs a hell of a good look at. We’re going to spend another 700, $800 million on increased staffing to the NDIS. The NDIS fundamental problem is that it was started as a vote catcher, with no real thought behind it. Same with the NBN, same with Gonski. That’s one of the things in this country. The governments do not have the discipline to get the data and make the right decisions. They just come up with floating bubbles every now and then, just to get some headlines.

Kieran Gilbert: David Pocock, to you on the NDIS, they’ve got that target now, that cap of 8% growth every year. But even with that, to this point, it’s been $5 billion growth every year. As someone who supports it, do you also recognise the government’s concerns about the sustainability?

David Pocock: I thought Kurt Fearnley the other day, talking on RN, really nailed it, saying, “We’ve got to remember this is talking about people in our communities who desperately need the support to be able to live lives where they can be included in our society and they can contribute.” And I think that needs to be the basis of this discussion. But we clearly need to be looking at sustainability of a programme like this, and ways that it can be run efficiently and effectively to ensure that it’s there into the future.

Malcolm Roberts: Well, they’re nice words, David, but we need to get the money, and we need to have the discipline and how we spend it. At the moment, people are trying to kill the mining industry, which is the single greatest source of revenue for this country, number one and number two exports come from mining, and they’re trying to kill it. So it just does not make sense.

Kieran Gilbert: Malcolm Roberts, Barbara Pocock, Jacqui Lambie, David Pocock, thank you all. Appreciate your time on budget night and thank you for your company tonight.