Andrew retired from being a GP in 2019, he is married, a parent and a grandparent.
He is a graduate of Queensland University and spent the first two years after graduation as Resident Medical Officer at Princess Alexandra Hospital in Brisbane. Andrew was appointed Medical and Paediatric Registrar at Toowoomba Base hospital and had a small group General Practice in Brisbane for eight years. He also spent two years in solo practice in Central Queensland mining towns, Moranbah and Dysart, following which he returned to Brisbane where he was appointed Paediatric Registrar at the, then, Royal Children’s and Royal Women’s hospitals in Brisbane. Andrew returned to solo practice before retirement in 2019.
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Transcript
Speaker 1:
This is the Malcolm Roberts Show on Today’s News Talk Radio, TNT.
Malcolm Roberts:
Welcome back to Today’s News Talk Radio, tntradio.live. Last hour, we spoke with a wonderful, courageous woman who’s standing up for our society. This hour, we’re going to talk to a man, so we’re diverse. We talk to both sexes.
Malcolm Roberts:
So I want to welcome my second guest, Dr. Andrew Orr from Brisbane, Queensland, who actually lives not far from where my wife and I live, between Ipswich and Brisbane. Andrew Orr retired from being a GP in 2019. He’s married. He’s a parent. He’s a grandparent. He’s also a graduate of the University of Queensland and spent the first two years after graduation as resident medical officer at Princess Alexandra Hospital in Brisbane. Andrew was appointed medical and paediatric registrar at Toowoomba Base Hospital and had a small group general practise in Brisbane for eight years. He spent two years in solo practise in Central Queensland mining towns, Moranbah and Dysart. Oh, that’s another thing we share in common. I’ve lived in Dysart.
Malcolm Roberts:
Following which, he returned to Brisbane where he was appointed paediatric register at, well, as it was known then, the Royal Children’s and Royal Women’s Hospitals in Brisbane. Andrew returned to solo practise before retiring in 2019. He’s a male, yet he understands women. Maybe that’s a good question I could ask him. But he certainly understands biology. Welcome to TNT Radio. Great to have you on, Andrew.
Andrew Orr:
Thanks, Malcolm.
Malcolm Roberts:
Do you understand women?
Andrew Orr:
Do I understand women?
Malcolm Roberts:
Yeah.
Andrew Orr:
Well, I guess, yeah, I probably shouldn’t say anything about that publicly, should I? I might be in trouble. Yeah.
Malcolm Roberts:
You want to stay married and your wife might not exactly validate your claims, hey?
Andrew Orr:
Exactly.
Malcolm Roberts:
Okay. Something you appreciate, Andrew, anything at all, what do you appreciate?
Andrew Orr:
What do I appreciate in my life? Goodness me. Well, firstly, I remain aware and grateful. I’ve shared my life with a competent life partner, with whom we’ve had three sons, all of which have done the same, same sort of thing. They have married really top girls. And I’d like to think that my wife, Mary, and I have had a bit of a hand in that outcome because family is everything in life and it’s the basis on which you exhibit and build your own values and hopefully can pass them on.
Malcolm Roberts:
Well, I complimented our-
Andrew Orr:
It’s a core value thing.
Malcolm Roberts:
Yeah. I complimented our previous guest, Katherine Deves, for standing up for Australian values and human values really, and I want to do the same with you. You’ve approached it in a different way, but you’ve been in quite a battle. So let’s talk about gender dysphoria, Andrew. You’re a retired doctor. You’ve worked as a children’s hospital-based paediatric registrar. What’s gender dysphoria?
Andrew Orr:
Gender dysphoria is a sense of discomfort that an individual is feeling subject to a sense of what’s been called gender incongruity. I suppose the terms used is born in the wrong body, as some people like to explain it. It’s a basis of feeling discomfort. Many individuals have a variable degree of gender expression but may feel no discomfort with it at all, but a small number … Well, I shouldn’t say small. It’s a significant number are suffering with a degree of discomfort that they feel is because of what they call birth assigned … What their gender assigned at birth, what you and I would call your physiological or anatomical sex, doesn’t align with how they feel inside. And a significant number of these individuals are children. And of course, they come to the attention of medical practitioners, both the adults and the children. And we can talk later why I think our approach to minors, children should be different to that how we approach adults. I think adults should be-
Malcolm Roberts:
No, keep going.
Andrew Orr:
Adults should be free, path their own life course. But I think children who are in this position, Malcolm, it’s such a huge issue. It’s hard to know quite just where to start. I think it comes down to really an ideology that’s been called gender identity/fluidity, which it comes straight from the humanity, social science, specifically gender studies within that school of thought. And that has supported the idea of what’s been called queer theory. And of course, that’s given birth to the idea that we should respond to individuals who are suffering like that based on … Well, when you go with this with kids, what do you do with this? And these children who come to the attention of medical practitioners have been, the word that’s used is affirmed of their assertion because the child is deemed the ultimate arbiter of their gender.
Andrew Orr:
So they’re in a situation where they’re subject in many cases to medical intervention, which is the application of medicalization and the administration of puberty blocking hormones and cross-sex hormones, which is a contentious issue. It is contested. It is controversial. The outcome of this as to whether it does within the long term or not, we can talk about that.
Malcolm Roberts:
Okay.
Andrew Orr:
So maybe I’ve said enough for the moment. Maybe I’ll respond to the questions.
Malcolm Roberts:
Let’s be clear about a couple of things here to clarify my understanding at least, Andrew. You’re not opposed to people changing their sex if they’re an adult and they’re wanting to do that and they become well informed and that’s something that’s needed.
Malcolm Roberts:
And I gave an example of a person close to my wife and myself in another country, who we love very much, and she was going down the path, she married another lady. They’ve had a baby. She was going down the path to a sex exchange, and that was her choice. She’d been very much a tomboy. I’m not trying to simplify it, but that’s the way she felt for many, many years. There are people like that. They’re very few and far between, but there are people like that. And as she was starting to embark on the hormone treatment to become a male, she pulled back and she had reconsidered.
Malcolm Roberts:
Now some people go continue right through that process and they change their sex and that’s fine by me. You’re not opposed to that. That’s an adult decision. They’ve had many decades in that body and they realise they need to be someone else. I know someone else, a wonderful person who changed from being a male to a female and still a wonderful person. So they’re happy.
Malcolm Roberts:
But what you’re talking about with gender dysphoria, you used the word feeling discomfort. So if you dare question that, then I’m sure you’ve been labelled transgender, transphobic. But what you’re saying is that this is a statement of distress potentially, especially in children because they haven’t had the experience to make that life changing decision, so they shouldn’t be affirmed. They should be listened to, counselled, given good advice based on medical science on just being a human. Is that somewhat on the right mark?
Andrew Orr:
I think so. I think there is evidence, and I’m not going to sit here and tell you that I’m an expert in this. All I can do is say to you, in answering your questions, I’ll make reference to other authorities and I’ll answer them because I think they can articulate some of the things that you’re asking about better than put them in words better than I’ll be able to. But I think the medicalization of … Well, there’s been a tsunami, a virtual tsunami of biological girls who’ve appeared all over the world, expressing this gender incongruity. Much has been written about it. Much has been said about it. So I guess that’s what the issue we should be talking about, what to do, how to respond?
Andrew Orr:
Because the evidence is if you intervene prior or if you defer intervening until a child experiences their own puberty, and most of those children will desist from the expression of being incongruent, and they’ll either express as being homosexual, which is a much kinder path to life than as a transgender individual.
Malcolm Roberts:
Yes. I appreciate the human body. It’s absolutely amazing. Not just as it is right now for me, as anyone is right now for them. But the growth of the human body, we popped out, at some time, we were just a cell then we became larger foetus and then we started our heart beating in mother’s womb and the brain started forming, and we had all of these inputs. Then we enter the real world or outside our mother’s womb and we continue to grow and we go through planes of development that are not understood by most people. And just that sheer … It’s so amazing. It’s so beautiful.
Malcolm Roberts:
Think of a flower, bud, a little bud. It grows from just the end of a stem and then it unfolds. It’s compressed in that little bud. Next thing, it unfolds into an amazing flower, sometimes a huge flower, sometimes a foot or more across, 30 centimetres or more across, but then that’s nothing compared to the evolution of the unfolding, the blossoming of a human, the mental development, the social development, the physical development, the skills, the complexity. It takes 25 years to build a human being, and it takes 95 for some to mature.
Malcolm Roberts:
What you’re really saying is, as I understand it, correct me if I’m wrong, I’m not trying to put words in your mouth. I’m just trying to explore this. Gender dysphoria is this statement of distress about gender, people not really understanding. And I’ve used the words, it’s a distorted reality, and I don’t mean that in an unkind sense. I mean we all have distortions of reality at times. We’re not feeling so well. Those feelings are driven because we’re not feeling comfortable in something. When we start getting worried, we start having these feelings.
Malcolm Roberts:
So it could be, and that’s the evidence that I’ve seen, that a girl or boy, who is entering puberty, is not happy with their birth sex and they emerge. And if we just give them some gentle reassurance and some love, by the time they emerge from adolescence, they’re perfectly happy with their birth sex.
Andrew Orr:
Yeah. Well, it’s part of adolescence, isn’t it, finding yourself of who you are? And I think that we’ve all been … certainly all remembered well.
Andrew Orr:
To give you some idea of the size of the issue, my understanding is the Queensland Children’s Hospital Gender Clinic is the largest now, the largest clinic of all the clinics, outpatient clinics. So the numbers are rapidly expanding. The big clinic, of course, is in Melbourne. And of course, this whole phenomenon is a Western society observed observation. It’s massive in parts of America, in California, England, and we’re experiencing the same thing. And of course, what tends to happen with us is we tend to follow the Americans a bit. And I guess I’ve been concerned about the medicalization issue with children. I think if you look at what happens in America, you’ve got children who are presenting … or first, I should go back a step.
Andrew Orr:
When we go back a few decades ago, children who were expressing gender dysphoria were mainly biological boys, who were often preschoolers even, who were confused about who they were and this went on into adolescence, continued. And there’s another demographic, which is overwhelmed. That’s relatively a small group. And these are biological adolescent girls, who’ve never said a word about it as a preschooler, never said a word about it growing up until they start to enter puberty. And many of us feel that the social media effect has had a big impact in magnifying the whole thing with kids talking together. And I’ve got a bit of an idea about why, and I’ve never heard this mentioned, I’ll just put this to the audience as a thought, this is just a thought that I’ve had, what could explain this phenomenon of mainly 12, 13, 14-year-old girls who’ve suddenly come up with this idea that they’re not girls? They’re something else.
Andrew Orr:
If I put myself in the shoes of, say, a 13-year-old girl and I’ve got my smartphone and out of normal natural human curiosity like most of us, you look at everything you can look at. And these kids come across maybe by accident the dreadful stuff on the internet they’ve all got access to, the hardcore pornographic stuff. I can imagine if I was a 13-year-old girl, I’d look at that and say, “My God. Is that what I’m in for when I’m an adult? I don’t want any part of that.” So the natural reaction might be to run away from that as far as possible. Maybe I’m not a girl. Maybe I’m something else. Maybe I’m a boy. Maybe I’m not a boy. I don’t want to be a boy. The thought of being a lesbian might be acceptable to even contemplate. So maybe they’ll say, “Well, maybe I’m something in between.”
Andrew Orr:
Look, I don’t know, Malcolm. This is just a thought that’s come to me as to try and understand what has been behind this, as I say, tsunami, massive numbers of these kids. There’s an investigative journalist called Abigail Shrier, who has written a book called Irreversible Damage. And she quotes figures like up to 10% of preadolescent girls in schools in California, who are all expressing the same idea. So it’s quite intriguing as to what’s causing this phenomena. Obviously, social media augmented, magnified. Just a thought. That’s all.
Malcolm Roberts:
We know that it happens within groups. When one influential person in the group starts speaking this way, the peers take it on, and it seems to be peer pressure. But as I said a minute ago, we are very complex creatures. It takes 25 years to assemble our body, give or take a few years for variety amongst our species. But then you add the social aspects. You add the environment, the cultural aspects. You add the feelings that come in. And adolescence becomes very, very confusing. You add the physical changes and the things we’re bombarded with, with advertising, with social media, and then the crooked, corrupt, incompetent United Nations trying to break the family, pushing some of these things. We see all of this going on. It’s no wonder people are unhappy or have dysphoria and distress and somewhat distortion of reality.
Malcolm Roberts:
I’ve had distortions of reality. We all do. They’re called being incredibly angry, being overwhelmed, being stressed because of something. We all do that. But what we’ve got now is a group of agencies and even governments pushing kids down the line to have bits of their bodies chopped off, surgically altered, hormones going in there at critical parts of their life and they’re maturing, and these hormones disrupting the natural processes. This is not healthy.
Andrew Orr:
No. Of course, the question is why have medical practitioners become involved in this? The whole thing, as I said, it comes from a social science background. It comes from this gender identity/fluidity ideology. What else can we call it?
Malcolm Roberts:
Ideology, yes.
Andrew Orr:
So it’s just confusing as to why doctors, who’ve had their training, why they would include a small subset of my profession as elected and why would-
Malcolm Roberts:
Why?
Andrew Orr:
Maybe out of compassion. We might argue in this place, compassion to participate. Now that level of participation involves hormonal interventions. In Australia, it’s not possible to obtain surgical reassignment or affirmation surgery, they call it euphemistically, until you’re no longer a minor. But throughout the world in places, girls have had their breasts removed at the age of 13 and that sort of thing, and it would be dreadful to think if that intervention crept into Australian society. The hormonal intervention itself is not without its risks in the long term. It’s associated with unacceptable risk of infertility and loss of sexual function as an adult. So it’s not reversible the way it’s been claimed by some of the activists. So you wonder why there has been this collusion.
Andrew Orr:
And the other group that have puzzled me even more, not so much the ones who’ve been actively colluding and participating out of let’s call it misplaced compassion, but the ones who should know better, the senior ones who said nothing. And you wonder why. You can understand why many young ones who have said nothing, they have the threat of career retribution. That’s always looming large because as you say, you’re immediately branded as transphobic as soon as you’ve come up with an alternative idea. But the truth of the whole thing is irrevocable. I think it was Winston Churchill who gave that great quote about truth saying, irrevocable truth is denied by ideology. It may be denied by alternative conviction. And of course, it may be distorted by malice, but in the end, truth stands, irrevocable.
Andrew Orr:
As Thomas Sowell, the American philosopher, said, it’s like the north. It’s going to be there and the winds will blow and the snow will fall and the sun will be bloody. Everything will collapse. And when it’s all settled, there it is. It’s still north. So truth is something, I think as a medical practitioner, it’s something we always should be striving for. And I think what’s happened, I think … Yeah.
Malcolm Roberts:
That compass-
Andrew Orr:
We’ve gone on into this cul-de-sac.
Malcolm Roberts:
That compass in you is strong. I can sense that. So let’s come back and talk about being branded transphobic and maybe explore some of the issues you’ve just raised in a comprehensive introduction to this topic. We’ll go for a break now and then we’ll come back and hear your views on some of those specifics that you have raised with so much care.
Andrew Orr:
Okay.
Malcolm Roberts:
We’re with Dr. Andrew Orr and we’ll be back after the ad break.
Malcolm Roberts:
Welcome back and we’re with Dr. Andrew Orr. This is Senator Malcolm Roberts.
Malcolm Roberts:
So being branded transphobic, whenever I see someone using a label to condemn someone, pigeonhole them, I see an absence of defence, which usually indicates that what they’re pushing is ideologically driven and not fact based. But so many parents are now becoming labelled transphobic when they just want to talk with their kids who are just entering adolescence at a difficult period, and so their parents shut down. Isn’t that abandoning children?
Andrew Orr:
Well, there’s a fair bit of pressure. If you’re familiar with the term anti-conversion therapy, which has come into legislation in various legal jurisdictions in Australia, it started off in Victoria and the ACT announced in Queensland, anti-conversion therapy is deemed anything other than a clinician affirming a child’s assertion. In other words, you go along with what the child is saying because they’re the final arbiter about what their expression, what their opinion is about themselves in terms of gender. So a number of child and adolescent psychiatrists and paediatricians will be feeling a level of disquiet about how vulnerable they might be unless they refer the child to the clinic. The clinics are totally overwhelmed. I might say the numbers are just ridiculous. There are long waiting periods so you’ve got children who are left dangling, waiting for appointments.
Andrew Orr:
But a lot of clinicians are feeling that they can’t really … Well, they’re vulnerable if they don’t follow the party line as it were. So that’s an issue. And of course, that extends beyond just clinicians. That extend to counsellors, psychologists, and even parents are being felt vulnerable unless they act on the child’s assertion. They may well become vulnerable legally, which I can’t think of any other medical condition that’s subject to just one legally obligatory treatment protocol, in this case that of an affirmation model.
Malcolm Roberts:
So can we discuss those terms because I feel very confused about them? Can you tell us what affirmation model is? Can you tell us what anti-conversion therapy is? I think that’s being mandated now in law, isn’t it, in some states in this country?
Andrew Orr:
Yes, it’s in Queensland. Yes.
Malcolm Roberts:
So what’s affirmation model and what’s anti-conversion therapy?
Andrew Orr:
Affirmation model is you’re accepting what the child says unquestioningly because they are the final arbiter.
Malcolm Roberts:
So we affirm what the child feels.
Andrew Orr:
You’re affirming what they’re saying. You’re not trying to dissuade them in any way. And of course, that’s part of counselling when one … I’m not a trained psychological counsellor, but my understanding is what you do when you have a patient in that situation, regardless of the nature of the complaint, you listen and you try and let them talk their way through. You don’t influence them one way or the other. Many, many decades ago, conversion therapy was described as when homosexuality was a crime and homosexuality was totally socially unacceptable. Clinicians would use all sorts of dreadful physical methods to dissuade people out of their homosexual ideas.
Andrew Orr:
Now, that term has been appropriated to apply to a counsellor or a clinician, who is not affirming a child’s assertion. That’s been deemed as likely to be conversion therapy. And of course, there are significant penalties that apply to that, jail terms and there’s significant fines, and of course de-registration. So people who are faced with children like this are going to feel quite vulnerable, unless they either refer the child to the clinic, that’s really their only option. Unless they’ve had … And I’ve had it said to me that Medical Defence Association have indicated there is a level of protection one could gain by following certain guidelines that’s been published. It’s not quite the same as affirmation, but it’s halfway. It’s one foot on each side of the barbed wire fence, if you know what I mean?
Malcolm Roberts:
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Orr:
So I think a lot of people do juggle these kids. And of course, it’s a matter of where all these kids end up. As I said, the clinic is full, and a lot of the clinicians are feeling a bit wary about what they’re going to do. It’s a real predicament. It is a predicament.
Malcolm Roberts:
So my understanding then, if you could just tick me on this or correct me, confirm or correct, affirmation model says whatever the child says is right. And then if we dare counsel our child or counsel, if you’re a doctor counselling someone else’s child, then you’re trying to do anti-conversion.
Andrew Orr:
Yes.
Malcolm Roberts:
And that is deemed illegal in some states already.
Andrew Orr:
Yes.
Malcolm Roberts:
And yet, my basic understanding of medicine has been smashed by what they’ve done with the response to COVID where we don’t get a consultation with a doctor. We get a doctor giving us orders on what they’ve been told they must do. But my understanding of the way I use a doctor is I go to a doctor presenting with some symptoms, some problems, some concerns, some fears. I listen to that doctor. The doctor tries to prescribe something. I then engage in a dialogue to understand better and get the risks and the advantages, and then I make up my mind with the doctor’s guidance. That’s correct?
Andrew Orr:
Yeah, that sounds reasonable. Yeah.
Malcolm Roberts:
But we can’t do that when a child presents with gender dysphoria, even though maybe a very confused 12-year-old, entering adolescence, normal confusion. That can’t happen, so the doctor is under enormous pressure to not be seen to be anti-conversion.
Andrew Orr:
Yes. Malcolm, back in 2018, the Federal ALP at the Federal Conference enshrined the principle of affirmation.
Malcolm Roberts:
What?
Andrew Orr:
Yeah, with the change of federal government. I would just suggest to you that predictably, the various state governments may well be encouraged because they would have federal backing on this to more carefully look into what’s happening, and maybe various clinicians might be feeling doubly vulnerable. I’m just predicting what could reasonably be assumed might happen just because of the change of government. That was just one aspect that occurred to me that might make me think that if I was a child and adolescent psychiatrist, I’d be especially doubly feeling more vulnerable than I was six months ago, maybe. Just a thought.
Malcolm Roberts:
This is Senator Malcolm Roberts and I’m with a wonderful retired doctor, who’s been very concerned about gender dysphoria and what it’s doing to our children. So, Dr. Orr, where did the therapeutic professions, the psychiatrists and psychologists stand on this issue? They’re the ones who are supposedly counselling these children and families.
Andrew Orr:
Yeah.
Malcolm Roberts:
But if you’re the mother or the father, then you can be labelled transphobic, so you don’t get involved. If you’re the doctor, you could be afraid of anti-conversion therapy. So this just seems to be abandoning our children at a time when they most need us. Where do the psychiatrists and psychologists stand on it?
Andrew Orr:
Well, that’s a very good point. And I’ve been canvasing an idea to anyone who’d listen, making the following suggestion. It’s been suggested that the whole idea is controversial, the idea of treatment outcomes, the idea of affirmation treatment. I should add to you that affirmation is adopted to children once they vocalise this dysphoria, their symptoms, significant distress. It’s really once they’ve gone on this period of six months. That’s my understanding from what the clinicians at the gender clinic have told me.
Andrew Orr:
So that’s what’s supposed to be the criteria for affirming or offering affirmation, which can lead to hormonal intervention. The child has to have expressed this thing for a significant … persisting for at least six months, something like that. So it’s not like come in today and we’ll put you on the drugs tomorrow. Obviously, the clinicians at the clinic are compassionate and wanting to do the right thing. I should have made that point clear. I think that’s significant.
Andrew Orr:
So getting back to the child and adolescent psychiatrists as a body, they have a college, and the college has recently expressed an opinion about what their members should do. That policy basically is pretty much you make up your own mind about whether you refer the child to the clinic or not, but whatever you do, just be careful that it’s not likely to be deemed anti-conversion therapy. So you really need to examine carefully what you think the motives are for the child making these assertions.
Andrew Orr:
And because the outcome of all this is not known, we don’t really know the long term. It hasn’t been going long enough to know what the outcome of all this intervention is going to be. So it is controversial and it is contested. I would have thought-
Andrew Orr:
If you took that-
Malcolm Roberts:
So the doctors-
Andrew Orr:
Yeah. The doctors as a body, all the child and adolescent psychiatrists, were they to be canvased in let’s say a secret ballot like a voluntary plebiscite, do you support the idea of obligatory affirmation of a child’s assertion? Do you think that’s a good idea that we should have legislation for that?
Andrew Orr:
And the other point I’d like to put to them as a body would be ask the members of that group, secondly, would you support the deferment of hormonal intervention in minors until they reach a mature age decision about it? And intuitively, I would’ve thought most of them would be on board with thinking, no, we don’t agree. It’s legally obligatory that it should be affirmation. And yes, we would probably as a group, I would think an overwhelming majority would say, “We’d like to see hormonal intervention made legally obligatory that had been deferred until the child is no longer a minor.”
Andrew Orr:
So I think that’s the focus. I think that’s got to be the direction in which the profession goes. And I think if you’ve got that information, then it might go some way to convincing legislators that the whole thing is not as controversial as the activists, the protagonists declare, if they can be convinced that most of the serious clinicians, mainly the psychiatrists feel that way. That may influence legislators to say, “Well, maybe this legislation for anti-conversion therapy should be withdrawn. And maybe we should introduce legislation that makes medical intervention, hormonal intervention, not surgical intervention, hormonal intervention, make that deferred while the child is a minor.” So they’d be the two optimal outcomes one would like to see happen to my mind.
Malcolm Roberts:
So this could be yet another case of someone pushing an ideology, as a few groups pushing an ideology, the doctors being afraid, the parents being afraid. The fact that the media has got this into a stage where it’s now politically incorrect to oppose it, so everyone is afraid of saying anything. Then we have AHPRA, the Australian Health Practitioners Regulation Agency, and the AHPPC, the Australian Health Protection Principal Committee. They are putting enormous pressure on doctors. The doctors are now terrified of the media. They’re terrified of being labelled transphobic, just as our parents. They’re afraid of being, what, sent to jail, fines, de-registered.
Andrew Orr:
Yeah.
Malcolm Roberts:
And then they see legislation in some states talking about, just saying something to counsel a child to think maybe consider, anti-conversion therapy. So the doctor then, what you’re saying, I think, is that there could be a lot of fear around this and a lot of uncertainty. And what you need is that plebiscite of psychiatrists and psychologists and their views also on deferment of treatment to minors, whether it be hormonal treatment or surgical treatment.
Andrew Orr:
I think that might go some way, Malcolm, to convince legislators because at the moment, all they’re listening to are the activists, and they’ve been quite powerful, and they’ve had the ear of legislators to be able to obtain that legislation. So I think they need to listen. The legislators need to listen to people. That might come up with a reason to change their mind. That’s just a thought. That’s all.
Malcolm Roberts:
Well, that makes sense to me because legislators are put up on little pedestals and praised as little tin gods so often around the country. I’m continually asked, “Oh, what’s your view on this?” How the hell would I know? It’s just a new topic to me. What’s your view on that? What’s your view on that? I’m treated as if I’m an expert on everything, and I’m simply not. The difference between me and others is that I’ll admit that, but the legislators are largely ignorant and they’re easy prey to activists who are pushing an agenda through the media, and so legislators respond to the media.
Malcolm Roberts:
So this is just an ideologically driven campaign that is hurting our kids. And ultimately, when our kids go through adolescence, confused and have hormonal treatment, which disrupts, destroys their development or they have bits and pieces cut off their bodies, and then they don’t have a full sex life later on, they have disease coming in later on, they have heartache. Then they’re really in trouble psychologically. We’re leaving these kids out to dry because we haven’t got the courage to say, what the hell is going on?
Andrew Orr:
Yeah. Well, in the United States, and as I said to you, I think as we all have observed, much what happens here, we follow the American themes, don’t we really, in so many different areas. Well, in the United States, what worries me, I’m just thinking in terms of participation of paediatric endocrinologists, across the United States is a network called Planned Parenthood, whose function was basically pregnancy termination services and contraceptive advice and services. But they’ve increased their business model now to dealing with children who are presenting at the clinics sent by counsellors, and these clinics or Planned Parenthood include paediatric endocrinologists, whose function is almost last cab off the rank, to provide the child with the hormones because the psychologists, who sent the child there, aren’t prescribing clinicians. They’re not qualified to do that.
Andrew Orr:
So they’ve got to involve medical practitioners significantly, specifically the endocrinologist, to supply the hormone. So the endocrinologists there supply the hormones, and the child goes, and there’s a complete abrogation of any sense of ongoing clinical responsibility. They’re basically just one little cog in the wheel. That sort of thing as of my reading, if that’s absolutely true and I have no reason to think it’s not true, when you see that sort of thing that it’s progressed to that level in a place like the United States, you wonder if we can expect that behaviour here. I would like to think it wouldn’t be possible, but there you go. You just got to look at what happens over there and think, goodness me, if that would’ve happened here.
Malcolm Roberts:
Can we take an ad break now, Dr. Orr, and be right back with you straight after the ad break and continue this?
Andrew Orr:
Thank you.
Malcolm Roberts:
Okay. We’ll be right back with Dr. Andrew Orr to continue discussions on gender dysphoria.
Malcolm Roberts:
Welcome back. This is Senator Malcolm Roberts, and my special guest is Dr. Andrew Orr, and we’re talking about gender dysphoria. TNT Radio, the only thing we mandate is the truth, and that’s what’s so important here, and it’s taken a while to get me to understand this. Pardon my ignorance, Dr. Orr. So we’ve now understood that this is a problem that’s driven by activists, exacerbated by peer pressure at a very sensitive age for kids. It’s out of touch. How could you say it? Medical bureaucrats, who are giving orders. Can we have an idea of just how big this problem is? How prevalent is gender dysphoria in Queensland? How many children are affected and how worried should we be, Andrew?
Andrew Orr:
Well, as I said to you, my understanding is that the clinic at the new Queensland Children’s Hospital is the largest outpatient clinic at the hospital. I understand there’s something of the order of 750 children currently this year. Well, I think it’s doubled over the last year or two, who are enrolled at the clinic, who are seen by the clinicians at the children’s hospital. So their waiting times are significant, so a lot of children who have been referred cannot be seen. And I think the same things happen down in the big clinic in Melbourne, I think. That’s my understanding. So it’s a big problem.
Malcolm Roberts:
750 children at a clinic. What about all the children not at the clinic? That would be a far greater number. So this is almost an epidemic of this.
Andrew Orr:
Yeah, that’s a misunderstanding. I’m not talking about 750 kids with their moms in one room.
Malcolm Roberts:
No.
Andrew Orr:
I’m talking about outpatient clinic to be clear.
Malcolm Roberts:
Okay. Yeah. No, but if they’re the ones who are getting clinical treatment then they’d be the tip of the iceberg.
Andrew Orr:
Yeah, of course.
Malcolm Roberts:
So we’ve got something that’s out of control and that is really affecting and hurting not just the children who are the key focus here, but also families and therefore communities, parents worried sick and doctors under pressure.
Andrew Orr:
Yeah, absolutely.
Malcolm Roberts:
So from your perspective then, your medical perspective, what’s your take on FINA’s decision to ban transgender participants for elite competition? Should it stop at just the elite sports? I think you’re involved with a rowing club, I won’t mention the club’s name, but which has community ramifications.
Andrew Orr:
Yes. Well, Malcolm, can I just refer to something I’ve dug up, which your listeners might be interested in? This comes from Margaret Somerville, a professor of bioethics at the National School of Medicine at the University of Notre Dame Australia. She was a founding board member of the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport and a member of the World Anti-Doping Agency’s Ethical Issues Review Panel.
Andrew Orr:
So what I thought I might do is I know you’re going to ask me about that, I had a look at some resource material, and I think let me just read this. “It merits noting that Sport Australia’s guidelines for the inclusion of transgender and gender diverse people in sport, human rights informing principles call for equality but not fairness.” So basically that’s the Sports Australia’s guidelines.
Andrew Orr:
So go back a step. The World Anti-Doping Agency was founded back in November 1999. It lists drugs athletes are prohibited from using, but it also has the term therapeutic use exemption guidelines, TUE guidelines that allow the use of prohibited drugs for necessary medical treatment. In 2017, it produced a document called The Therapeutic Use Exemption Physician Guidelines, transgender athletes, which states, “The exclusive purpose of this medical information is to define the criteria for granting a therapeutic use exemption for the treatment with substances on the prohibited list to transgender athletes. It is not the purpose of this medical information to define the criteria of the eligibility of these athletes to participate in competitive sport, which is entirely left to the different sporting federations and organisations.”
Andrew Orr:
So that’s the important thing. It is left to the different sporting federations. So you’ve seen FINA come out with their opinion. So in short, this World Anti-Doping Authority deals only with what the medical evidence requirements would be for an exemption permission to use cross-sex hormones. It actually ducks the issue of whether trans athletes taking these drugs should be allowed to compete in their transgender category.
Andrew Orr:
The authority was founded to prevent the use of performance enhancing drugs, however, the issue faced in cross-sex hormone treatment for trans women, biological males, is where the performance dis-enhancing drugs to reduce natural testosterone levels should be allowed as an exemption in trans men, biological women. The question is whether performance enhancing testosterone should be allowed.
Andrew Orr:
So it’s acknowledged that these were only recommendations and the decisions about inclusion of transgender athletes was up to the individual sports federations. Now we’ve heard what FINA said with regard to swimming. Rowing Australia I think has made a similar exclusion, except when it comes down to social rowing where they’ve adopted the line suggested by the Sport Australia where you include transgender and gender diverse people. So in that case, they’ve forgotten about fairness and they’ve gone with the work idea of laissez-faire.
Malcolm Roberts:
And so now, all the pressure from the ideologists, the activists is now pushed on to community sporting groups like rowing clubs, like cricket clubs, like football clubs, and they have to make that decision, and they are bombarded by the same woke media, pushing the activist line, the same bombarding by ignorant and gutless politicians. So that’s why we’re going to have to wrap up pretty soon. So I just want you to repeat your solution, and we’ve got about two minutes, if that, your solution is a voluntary plebiscite of psychiatrists and psychologists and de-affirmative treatment to all minors.
Andrew Orr:
Yes. And also de-affirmative treat … That’s right. Well, an abolishment of anti-conversion therapy, which will take away the threat of legislation to clinicians and the legally obligatory de-affirmative hormonal intervention in minors. And I think that’s the goal I would see my profession as pursuing.
Malcolm Roberts:
Thank you. Where can parents, families, people within our communities, people in the medical health, where can they go for more information? You mentioned that book. Perhaps you could mention that book, the title again, and then mention any sources, any websites that you could steer people to.
Andrew Orr:
Yeah, look, Malcolm. There’s so many, but let me just mention two. There’s a book by Helen Joyce called Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality. That’s a book. It’s Oneworld Publication. It’s just called Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality.
Andrew Orr:
The other thing I think that’s worth reading as an interested listener might be, the wonderful Douglas Murray, who you might know, who’s the assistant editor at the London Spectator Magazine, who’s frequently interviewed on YouTube. He’s written a book called The Madness of Crowds, which very interestingly-
Malcolm Roberts:
Oh yes. Yes.
Andrew Orr:
He’s written about the different movements that have occurred through society, the civil rights movement, the women’s rights movement, the gay rights movement. And then lastly, the one, as he says, we least understand is the trans movement. If you got that book, The Madness of Crowds, I just read the last chapter, that is excellent.
Malcolm Roberts:
Okay. We’re going to have to go, but I’m going to say before we go, thank you so much, Dr. Andrew Orr for what you have done, what you continue to do and for a fabulous discussion today. This is Senator Malcolm Roberts, staunchly pro-human and a believer in the inherent goodness in human beings.
Andrew Orr:
Excellent.
Malcolm Roberts:
Please remember to listen to one another and to love one another. Stay very proud of who we are as humans. Thank you, Andrew. Thank you all for listening.
Andrew Orr:
My pleasure.
Malcolm Roberts:
Catch you again in two weeks’ time.
